by tedster » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:04 pm
Guest wrote:GuiMarquito wrote:1. Do anarchists think and are okay with anarchism meaning a reduction in the quantity/quality of goods?
No. Of course, my definition of quality might be different fro someone else's definition.
Some qualities will go down, but not all. The loss in quality is mostly going to be from stuff that are made to make items sell better, and mostly likely won't have any real importance. Quality could actually increase because cost in terms of current financial systems are likely to be taken out as a factory.
Quantity will change depending on what it is that you are thinking of. In the current world, there is enough food to feed most people, and the people who are starving is mostly an issue of accessibility.
Many stuff that gets wasted may actually end up getting used instead.
2. How is incentive created in a moneyless society?
Need/necessity/fulfillment of desire/many other ways
Andrei Kalishnikov never made more than his base salary, despite inventing a product that was manufactured billions of times. The idea that incentive comes only in the form of money/profit is a myth of capitalism.
What "Guest" said plus:
The current system also makes us stop doing things, such as not doing something that could bring safety and comfort to those concerned. For example. An auto manufacture may decided not to bother to change something even though it is causing lives. Global warming is getting neglected because of cost in profits.
Much of the incentives are also often discussed have more to do with sales and quotas, which give distractions to quality and whether we really need that $2,000 fur sink.
Further more, there is a personal incentive to do things because it pleases them, and because it is a way to stay accepted in a community.
3. What about people who work more productively than others?
Well, I have worked in many offices when I was younger, so the only answer I can give is that in the current situation, the most truly productive are kept down, while the time-wasters rise to the top. Almost anything would be an improvement.
Nothing to add there. Except I also would like to add that my last sentence to my answer in Question two applys here also. And a question begs, producing what?
4. I know america is practically a dictatorship. Everywhere I search about that a lot of videos and arcticles and Noam Chomsly talks appear. But what about the rest of the world? Not all governments are XIX-century-like. I for example, have 5 factions in my parliament, two of which are socialist (a communist party and a trotskist/lefts united one). And although you can notice some inclinations for left and right in the media they are mostly not biased, and include arcticles from multiple views. This may be because the system here, unlike in america, has been through some revolutionary changes in the last 200 years. But still, doesn't it mean Governments are at least possibly decent(although I must admit the parties in power haven't been exactly pleasant)?
I don't know what country you are in, but I will use Germany as an example. It is a "parlimentary democracy" as well. You will recall that both the German people and the German government were opposed to the attack on Iraq in 2003. The Chancellor even formally declared that they would not be aiding the invasion in any way. Years later, it was revealed that the German intelligence services gave full help and cooperation to the USA.
So, Germany can call itself a "democracy" or whatever. And the German Left parties can speak in the parliment and denounce war. And the German Green party can be in favor of war (as in Yugoslavia). And the SPD and CDU can say what they want. But none of them is in control of policy
when it really matters.
"left" and "right" are a scam and a sham. both have been invented by the people who have an ideology called "power."
Pretty what "Guest" said about Germany is also true about other countries.
Politicians will promise somethings and will even fulfill them, but often the fine print is easily over looked. There is also a lot of doublespeak so they will say one thing when it really will have the opposite effect, or it will just pacify the masses.
There is much below the surface that doesn't become obvious to people. In the US, congress has voted on time tables to stop the war but it also has expenditures that makes the war possible.
5. What about tasks that nobody wants - i.e. security guard, shopkeeper, shoe factory worker, etc (basically anything people are forced to do and don't really find as a personal aspiration)?
Robots. (ok, maybe not for security guard)
Yes, you are laughing right now, but honestly, it could be done if technology was geared for it (instead of profit and control).
I don't think I will talk about any technology that isn't in place as we don't know what the outcome of that will be.
People are also doing shit that doesn't need to get done. If it's important, people will be security guards, shopkeepers, Shoe makers and cobblers will be around as they always have been. And the technology is already here to make large amounts.
Keep in mind the reason why people often don't want to work in the occupations you described, is because they pay like shit. One thing that you haven't mentioned on your list is farm work. And that can easily be a communal effort.
Again people will have motives which once again goes to my last sentence on item 2.
In a pinch, not all systems come out truly pure, as we may still may make an exception yet to be determined.
I personally volunteer at a food not bombs once a week, which includes getting food assist in cooking and eventually serving it. I also occasionally work at an all volunteer bookstore. I have also watched many people do stuff because the need is there and they do actually like to do things because it benefits the community.
[quote="Guest"][quote="GuiMarquito"]
1. Do anarchists think and are okay with anarchism meaning a reduction in the quantity/quality of goods?
[/quote]
No. Of course, my definition of quality might be different fro someone else's definition.
[/quote]
Some qualities will go down, but not all. The loss in quality is mostly going to be from stuff that are made to make items sell better, and mostly likely won't have any real importance. Quality could actually increase because cost in terms of current financial systems are likely to be taken out as a factory.
Quantity will change depending on what it is that you are thinking of. In the current world, there is enough food to feed most people, and the people who are starving is mostly an issue of accessibility.
Many stuff that gets wasted may actually end up getting used instead.
[quote]
[quote]2. How is incentive created in a moneyless society?[/quote]
Need/necessity/fulfillment of desire/many other ways
Andrei Kalishnikov never made more than his base salary, despite inventing a product that was manufactured billions of times. The idea that incentive comes only in the form of money/profit is a myth of capitalism.
[/quote]
What "Guest" said plus:
The current system also makes us stop doing things, such as not doing something that could bring safety and comfort to those concerned. For example. An auto manufacture may decided not to bother to change something even though it is causing lives. Global warming is getting neglected because of cost in profits.
Much of the incentives are also often discussed have more to do with sales and quotas, which give distractions to quality and whether we really need that $2,000 fur sink.
Further more, there is a personal incentive to do things because it pleases them, and because it is a way to stay accepted in a community.
[quote]
[quote]3. What about people who work more productively than others?[/quote]
Well, I have worked in many offices when I was younger, so the only answer I can give is that in the current situation, the most truly productive are kept down, while the time-wasters rise to the top. Almost anything would be an improvement.
[/quote]
Nothing to add there. Except I also would like to add that my last sentence to my answer in Question two applys here also. And a question begs, producing what?
[quote]
[quote]4. I know america is practically a dictatorship. Everywhere I search about that a lot of videos and arcticles and Noam Chomsly talks appear. But what about the rest of the world? Not all governments are XIX-century-like. I for example, have 5 factions in my parliament, two of which are socialist (a communist party and a trotskist/lefts united one). And although you can notice some inclinations for left and right in the media they are mostly not biased, and include arcticles from multiple views. This may be because the system here, unlike in america, has been through some revolutionary changes in the last 200 years. But still, doesn't it mean Governments are at least possibly decent(although I must admit the parties in power haven't been exactly pleasant)?[/quote]
I don't know what country you are in, but I will use Germany as an example. It is a "parlimentary democracy" as well. You will recall that both the German people and the German government were opposed to the attack on Iraq in 2003. The Chancellor even formally declared that they would not be aiding the invasion in any way. Years later, it was revealed that the German intelligence services gave full help and cooperation to the USA.
So, Germany can call itself a "democracy" or whatever. And the German Left parties can speak in the parliment and denounce war. And the German Green party can be in favor of war (as in Yugoslavia). And the SPD and CDU can say what they want. But none of them is in control of policy [i]when it really matters[/i].
"left" and "right" are a scam and a sham. both have been invented by the people who have an ideology called "power."
[/quote]
Pretty what "Guest" said about Germany is also true about other countries.
Politicians will promise somethings and will even fulfill them, but often the fine print is easily over looked. There is also a lot of doublespeak so they will say one thing when it really will have the opposite effect, or it will just pacify the masses.
There is much below the surface that doesn't become obvious to people. In the US, congress has voted on time tables to stop the war but it also has expenditures that makes the war possible.
[quote]
[quote]5. What about tasks that nobody wants - i.e. security guard, shopkeeper, shoe factory worker, etc (basically anything people are forced to do and don't really find as a personal aspiration)?[/quote]
Robots. (ok, maybe not for security guard)
Yes, you are laughing right now, but honestly, it could be done if technology was geared for it (instead of profit and control).[/quote]
I don't think I will talk about any technology that isn't in place as we don't know what the outcome of that will be.
People are also doing shit that doesn't need to get done. If it's important, people will be security guards, shopkeepers, Shoe makers and cobblers will be around as they always have been. And the technology is already here to make large amounts.
Keep in mind the reason why people often don't want to work in the occupations you described, is because they pay like shit. One thing that you haven't mentioned on your list is farm work. And that can easily be a communal effort.
Again people will have motives which once again goes to my last sentence on item 2.
In a pinch, not all systems come out truly pure, as we may still may make an exception yet to be determined.
I personally volunteer at a food not bombs once a week, which includes getting food assist in cooking and eventually serving it. I also occasionally work at an all volunteer bookstore. I have also watched many people do stuff because the need is there and they do actually like to do things because it benefits the community.