White Middle-Class Males

[DavidC]

I'm interested in having some sort of rational discussion about the prejudice against, and aparantenly predominace of, white middle-class males in the anarchist movement as a whole. <br> <br>Why is it wrong to be white? Is it OK if I don't abuse that position? Is there any way I can change to be acceptable? Is the case against whites merely racism? <br> <br>and ditto for 'Middle-Class' (explaining, of you wish, what you mean by 'middle-class), and males.

[oddasudda]

I think that this is a good discussion to have. <br> <br>There was a heated debate on this topic over on the Anarchist Youth Network boards: <br>http://flag.blackened.net/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=gendiscayn&amp;Number=26972&amp;page=0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=0&amp;fpart=

[matthoffmann]

Just as long as it is not a 'woe is me' sort of thing. <br> <br>You should check out Race Traitor. It's very thorough and rational and just amazing! <br> <br>

[Yuda]

I proudly wear a "I am a race trator" t-shirt

[Guest]

i was quite proud of the (mostly white) kids who smashed up the INS office during the recent SF protest. <br> <br>

[Guest]

we live in a system of world-wide apartheid which places 'white' people at the top. you simply will not <br>be able to understand this until you have walked a mile <br>in the shoes of a 'person of color' (awful term, but <br>descriptive enough for this purpose). <br> <br>i suggest the book 'black like me' or at the very least <br>a re-viewing of the famous eddie murphy SNL skit "white like me." [img]/wwwthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] <br> <br>

[stinkbomb]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>Just as long as it is not a 'woe is me' sort of thing.<p><hr></blockquote> <br> <br>I have to say I don't have a problem with white middle class males if they don't have a problem with those of us who are not. <br> <br>&lt;gently stirs the cauldron&gt; <br> <br>[img]/wwwthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] <br> <br> <br> <br> <br>

[Guest]

OK, I got in a big thing with Odda on the AYN boards about this so I'm not gonna continue that, just state my point and leave it (I don't like message boards). <br>Firstly, I'm white (and immigrant but a white immigrant) and I'm a male but I'm w/class. Anyway, let's begin: <br>Being white is a privilege. You will not be turned down for a job for being white (affirmative action makes so little a difference, it barely warrants mentioning). You will never be stopped and searched for being white. You will never be paid less than your co-workers for being white. There are no jokes depicting white people as thieves. All these are examples of white privilege in society. We can't do anything about our white privilege except for fight for a society where there are no privileges (y'know, the one after the revolution). We cannot renounce being white and so we are privileged in THIS society. <br>Being Middle-class is a privilege. I've got no problem with middle-class anarchists as long as they don't seek to keep anarchism as a middle-class ideology (like Trotskyists generally only work amongst uni students and academics coz they fear the w/class as the w/class are too radical and as w/class ppl will be the rank 'n' file to m/class leadership then they will want more direct action than the leadership is willing to allow. Coz of this (as well as other reasons) trots don't work with w/class ppl prefering to see us as yobs). Also, the m/class anarchos are more likely to have a hang-up about violence coz amongst their largely m/class friends, they have the privilege to be pacifists (w/class ppl, however, live violent lives with jackings, stabbings, shootings often being everyday life in w/class communities and so aren't pacifists) and so condemn violence as 'off putting' for ppl outside the movement when really it is only that to middle/upper classes. Again, nothing is wrong with being m/class coz its just a result of birth but you can renounce wealth and you can renounce 'm/class' beliefs. <br>Finally, it is a privilege to be a man. You will never be paid less than co-workers, be turned down for jobs, have your arse slapped by the boss, be passed over for promotion or be forced into mothering roles by unfair maternity/paternity leave distrobution. Also, female clothes are more oppresive than male clothes. The way in which a woman's clothes display her are not like that which blokes have (not saying that a woman in high heels and a push-up bra can't be a feminist) and women are forced to conform to physical norms which blokes don't have to (and then once the woman gets old, she has past her best before date and now should conform to old woman norm). I've only just recently been reading up on feminist thought (my g/friend is an anarcha-feminist) but this is kinda what I've pieced together from my limited reading and life experiences (never really had mum/dad thing coz I was only brought up by my mum but I've seen stuff with female friends and I remember my mum being rejected for loads of jobs (tho that could be down to a few other things like nationality, boss not wanting to take on staff that might not be fluent english speakers etc) and other stuff like adverts, films and female role models. Oh, and that when I was little I wanted to be a soldier while my female friends all wanted to be mums (I don't think it's biological). <br>Anyway, that's me for today (and quite possbily forever on this thread coz I doubt I can be bothered). <br>Anyway, laters

[oddasudda]

I agree.

[Phoebe]

the thing about students is harsh. i know plenty of students who are poor who come from working class backgrounds who will most likely go to a working class environment (ie not into management etc). also students in general tend to be poorer than a lot of other people. students however have some sort of "priviledge" cause if you've got a degree you're much less likely to get discriminated against in terms of a career life or whatever. the neo-fascists who live next door to my cousin rant about black people all the time but are quite pleasant to a black friend of the family when she comes around for parties because she's got a degree and a reasonably high ranking job on a tv station and therefore is one of the few "en-whitened" black people or something. it's sick but it happens.

[Guest]

I just hate the middle-class. It doesn't matter to me what colour they happen to be, or what political affiliation they hold. They're not working class and as such they have nothing of any relevance to say to me. That goes for middle-class anarchists, Trotskyists, Stalinists or whatever. I don't like them and see no reason why I should. No doubt some middle-class anarchist (or ally of a middle-class anarchist) is going to reply and put his/her case and tell me why I'm a complete bastard and how we could never survive without our middle-class 'comrades'. Let's have it then! Don't dissapoint me now.

[Phoebe]

i don't see any reason to inform you why you can't do without the middle class. i just can't see any reason you'd want to. <br> <br>i'd also like to point out to you that most of the pioneers of anarchist writing were middle/upper class, mostly because they've got enough time to get around to it.

[Guest]

The reason I would want to do without the middle-class is because for all their protestations to the contrary, they would conform to their upbringing and would want to run the show. <br>I'm suspicious of aristocrats involving themselves in radical politics.

[Phoebe]

i get called middle class a lot. i'm paying my way through university right now which i guess is the most working class thing i've done my whole life (parents can't afford to pay my fees. occasionally give me a little cash to help me through rough patches when my work decides not to pay me for up to 2 months at a time). <br> <br>but my gran was a reasonably famous opera singer, grandpa was moneyed and the whole family is fairly middle class. I even went to private school for 3 years. <br> <br>one of my main queries is why you'd want to exclude the middle class. i've got no interest in "running the show". to which you may call me a liar but i'd like to see some proof. <br> <br>apart from that aristocrats don't exist so overtly these days. classist politics is weakened by the puritan caste-ism which seems to ignore the fact that the bourgeois these days is a fluid class as is the working class. in the rare cases, paupers rise to wealth and power, and the rich similarly fall. this is no longer a feudalism. recognition of the more fluid class structure would be a good starting point for those looking to destroy it.

[Guest]

I'm just very curious why anyone from the middle-class would want to overturn a system in which they seem to be doing quite well. <br>The obvious example of middle-class people involving themselves in our politics is the SWP. As soon as they turn up on a demo or picket line, people switch off. It's the accent. I just can't take them seriously because they don't sound like we do. And I get the impression they are just going through a passing phase.