I'm not quite sure how you came to that conclusion. Could you explain why you think Europe would have stayed on top without colonisation and the like?
On another note, Europe was behind as far as technology and trade for quite a while. It wasn't until about the 1400's or so that they started getting their shit together. The primary reason that Europe became the strongest military power was because of constant warfare between European states. So war also gave Europe a head start when they started trading more.
The White Anti-Racist Is an Oxymoron
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by birthday pony » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:28 pm
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by Insecuritykiller » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:11 am
Well, europe would of done everything it would of done today except that it would be restricted to europe. The same lifestyle and influence would remain.
It would of been alot better for everyone if that was true. But we wanted to spread the lords word and make some profit while at it.
...The islamic world would of spread alot further i think if we didn't. Not the chinese. A powerful islam wouldn't of been a great thing for peace in the future with a supposed non expansionist west. So maybe it wouldn't be such a great thing.
Anyway, alot of people in the world respect what european folk have done, and they don't mind if we get privilege. People acknowledge that it was europeans that expanded into the rich places of the earth where they didn't.
Goto africa and ask them what they think of the west. Well, they probably wont have nice things to say. But alot of them want to get out of there and move to a western country. Africa tried to imitate the west after the english and french withdrawal by borrowing lots of money. Ofcourse though, they would never be like the west without its professionals. They should of gone back to being farming people. Now we see the consequences of that. And yet there's former slaves in america that still want to return to islam. They should go have a look at what their own people have done to their old countries. What needs to happen is that debt needs to be cancelled and africa needs to be helped onto its feet. Helped onto its feet by the west. By white people.
It would be great to see and industrialised africa and a healthy beautiful africa. Black people with their own society to call theirs would be good. I would love to see it happen.
We are living in a multi-racial society now. But people who moved to the west expect nothing more then a better life. They don't want to be equal to white people. Or whatever. It doesn't matter. They are more then happy to let us have our little spot light, and our privilege. Ofcourse, it's a differn't story for those who have been forced from their homes. Like the african slaves in the americas, or the indigenous populations of ongoing colonies.
They want us to continue to lead. They see it as our society. They want us to make the rules and make the culture of our societies. There are people everywhere like yourself though that forget all of this.
It would of been alot better for everyone if that was true. But we wanted to spread the lords word and make some profit while at it.
...The islamic world would of spread alot further i think if we didn't. Not the chinese. A powerful islam wouldn't of been a great thing for peace in the future with a supposed non expansionist west. So maybe it wouldn't be such a great thing.
Anyway, alot of people in the world respect what european folk have done, and they don't mind if we get privilege. People acknowledge that it was europeans that expanded into the rich places of the earth where they didn't.
Goto africa and ask them what they think of the west. Well, they probably wont have nice things to say. But alot of them want to get out of there and move to a western country. Africa tried to imitate the west after the english and french withdrawal by borrowing lots of money. Ofcourse though, they would never be like the west without its professionals. They should of gone back to being farming people. Now we see the consequences of that. And yet there's former slaves in america that still want to return to islam. They should go have a look at what their own people have done to their old countries. What needs to happen is that debt needs to be cancelled and africa needs to be helped onto its feet. Helped onto its feet by the west. By white people.
It would be great to see and industrialised africa and a healthy beautiful africa. Black people with their own society to call theirs would be good. I would love to see it happen.
We are living in a multi-racial society now. But people who moved to the west expect nothing more then a better life. They don't want to be equal to white people. Or whatever. It doesn't matter. They are more then happy to let us have our little spot light, and our privilege. Ofcourse, it's a differn't story for those who have been forced from their homes. Like the african slaves in the americas, or the indigenous populations of ongoing colonies.
They want us to continue to lead. They see it as our society. They want us to make the rules and make the culture of our societies. There are people everywhere like yourself though that forget all of this.
TAKE WHAT IS YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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by birthday pony » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:09 pm
Insecuritykiller wrote:Well, europe would of done everything it would of done today except that it would be restricted to europe. The same lifestyle and influence would remain.
Perhaps, but the new ideas and innovation from other cultures would not have been present. Europeans didn't really have their own advancements until the enlightenment.
insecruitykiller wrote:Anyway, alot of people in the world respect what european folk have done, and they don't mind if we get privilege. People acknowledge that it was europeans that expanded into the rich places of the earth where they didn't.
Goto africa and ask them what they think of the west. Well, they probably wont have nice things to say. But alot of them want to get out of there and move to a western country. Africa tried to imitate the west after the english and french withdrawal by borrowing lots of money. Ofcourse though, they would never be like the west without its professionals. They should of gone back to being farming people. Now we see the consequences of that. And yet there's former slaves in america that still want to return to islam. They should go have a look at what their own people have done to their old countries. What needs to happen is that debt needs to be cancelled and africa needs to be helped onto its feet. Helped onto its feet by the west. By white people.
No shit. African nations want what the west has because the west has wealth and power. They try to mimic us because we have obtained wealth and power while they have not. It's obvious that people in shitty countries with war want to move to richer countries that have more stability. That is not the issue. The issue is that Europeans have become a dominant power through oppression, not good honest hard work.
insecuritykiller wrote:We are living in a multi-racial society now. But people who moved to the west expect nothing more then a better life. They don't want to be equal to white people.
Ask anyone who has moved here if they would like to be equal to whites and they will say yes. Their life is relatively better, but it is still shitty due to white oppression.
insecuritykiller wrote:They want us to continue to lead. They see it as our society. They want us to make the rules and make the culture of our societies. There are people everywhere like yourself though that forget all of this.
This is one of the most condescending views of the eastern world I have ever seen. I know that people do not simply submit and say "Oh, the west is doing such a fine job, let's have them stay in charge." They usually say "The west bombed my house." or "My mother was killed by an American soldier." The desire for western intervention is more out of practicality than a real desire for us to lead. For instance: if a country needs money and the west has money, they will ask the west for money, out of practicality not desire for leadership. This usually happens via world bank or something and the poor countries are once again obligated to let the west rule.
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by Ricardo Fuego » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:47 pm
Hi.
I begin introducing myself. I'm Ricardo, from Argentina. I consider myself an anti-bolshevik communist. This topic got my attention and made me register and participate here. Excuse my poor english...
I think many have lost sight of the key issue of the excelent article by Tamara Nopper.
The core of the article is the dialectics between the "helper" and the "helped". Some "helper" attitudes, even if one has the best intentions, can be obstacles for the self-liberation of the "helped". We cannot contribute to the self-liberation of the oppressed from a position that reproduces the system of oppression.
For example, there are many people who join marxist-leninist organisations with true and profound desires for the emancipation of the proletariat and communism as a no-class and no-state society. But in doing so, they adopt a view and a practice in which the mass of the proletariat cannot self-liberate. The proletariat, by itself, cannot surpass the tradeunionist consciousness, Kautsky/Lenin says. So the socialist consciousness can only be achieved by the ideological influence and the political leadry of the vanguard party. The party must lead the proles for the proles' sake. This is, as everybody non-leninist knows, a paternalist-authoritarian attitude.
This kind of attitude does not contribute to the self-emancipation of the proletariat; on the contrary, it's a big obstacle to it. Therefore, people who wants to really contribute to the working class emancipation have first of all to give up to the revolutionary ideologies and practices that split the oppressed in "liberators" and "liberated".
Tamara is saying a similar thing but applies it to the anti-rascist struggle: white people cannot contribute to the liberation of non-white people unless they give up to the ideology and behaviour of "whiteness". The true fight against rascism is not to strive for the non-white people have equal opportunities and treatment that white people (help the less fortuned to "catch up"); it is to strive for the deconstruction of the race concept, functional to the white supremacy system of oppression present in USA and other countries.
I begin introducing myself. I'm Ricardo, from Argentina. I consider myself an anti-bolshevik communist. This topic got my attention and made me register and participate here. Excuse my poor english...
I think many have lost sight of the key issue of the excelent article by Tamara Nopper.
The core of the article is the dialectics between the "helper" and the "helped". Some "helper" attitudes, even if one has the best intentions, can be obstacles for the self-liberation of the "helped". We cannot contribute to the self-liberation of the oppressed from a position that reproduces the system of oppression.
For example, there are many people who join marxist-leninist organisations with true and profound desires for the emancipation of the proletariat and communism as a no-class and no-state society. But in doing so, they adopt a view and a practice in which the mass of the proletariat cannot self-liberate. The proletariat, by itself, cannot surpass the tradeunionist consciousness, Kautsky/Lenin says. So the socialist consciousness can only be achieved by the ideological influence and the political leadry of the vanguard party. The party must lead the proles for the proles' sake. This is, as everybody non-leninist knows, a paternalist-authoritarian attitude.
This kind of attitude does not contribute to the self-emancipation of the proletariat; on the contrary, it's a big obstacle to it. Therefore, people who wants to really contribute to the working class emancipation have first of all to give up to the revolutionary ideologies and practices that split the oppressed in "liberators" and "liberated".
Tamara is saying a similar thing but applies it to the anti-rascist struggle: white people cannot contribute to the liberation of non-white people unless they give up to the ideology and behaviour of "whiteness". The true fight against rascism is not to strive for the non-white people have equal opportunities and treatment that white people (help the less fortuned to "catch up"); it is to strive for the deconstruction of the race concept, functional to the white supremacy system of oppression present in USA and other countries.
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by Insecuritykiller » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:50 am
There's basicly three worlds: The christian world or the west, the islamic world or the middle east and the chinese world of the former mongol empire or the east. China and Japan are pretty damn seperate though.
Forgive me, i do so enjoy writeng lists.
Christian world: Europe, Russia, the Americas, Australia/newzealand. South Africa. These countries used to be but aren't any more: Indonesia India and Africa.
The christan world is europe and it's expansions. They are a european civilisation.
Islamic world: North Africa, Arabia, Persia and recently Indonesia and Africa.
The islamic world is the former islamic empire of the moors, turks and egyptians and where it's religion has spread. They are an arab civilisation who wants to improve and grow by it's own hands just like the christians. Held alot back by religious violence but.
Asian world: China, India, Those countries above indonesia, South Korea, Japan. Australia is also apart of the asian world somewhat.
Just a seperate and co-existing world that the west trades with.
What i'm talking about applies to the christian world. What i'm saying is that the christian world is the work of white people. Among other influences ofcourse, but the main driveing force in the christian world was its hard working peasants and that was the source of its power. Peasants whom were of the ethnic background of alot of the rich people in america. These peasants like things their way, and people are happy to let them have their way. Except ofcourse those who we have taken away from their homes, or colonised their homes.
I agree that all people are equal. I agree that those who we have visited suffering upon are more then equal to us. They require our sorrys and compensation.
But the fact remains that the recent past effects the present! The people that colonised these countries were white. So it's no surprise that these bigoted peasants are the ruleings class and that the culture is a christian one. And these countries wouldn't be the way they are without christians building them up. They just wouldn't. And everyone is thankful for the hard work white people have put in to build these countries.
Times are a changeing though and these countries are more of a co-op between racial/cultural types. As this continues, the west, the islamic world and the asian world will fade away and combine into one. As everyone industrilises and becomes "civilised."
Yes i know i say white people alot. But you know it's not something thats aknowleged enough. People think that we are "vanilla." or some shit and don't have any culture. We do, and we have built things too. That's not my identity being hurt, but rather it's important to know, for everyone.
Forgive me, i do so enjoy writeng lists.
Christian world: Europe, Russia, the Americas, Australia/newzealand. South Africa. These countries used to be but aren't any more: Indonesia India and Africa.
The christan world is europe and it's expansions. They are a european civilisation.
Islamic world: North Africa, Arabia, Persia and recently Indonesia and Africa.
The islamic world is the former islamic empire of the moors, turks and egyptians and where it's religion has spread. They are an arab civilisation who wants to improve and grow by it's own hands just like the christians. Held alot back by religious violence but.
Asian world: China, India, Those countries above indonesia, South Korea, Japan. Australia is also apart of the asian world somewhat.
Just a seperate and co-existing world that the west trades with.
What i'm talking about applies to the christian world. What i'm saying is that the christian world is the work of white people. Among other influences ofcourse, but the main driveing force in the christian world was its hard working peasants and that was the source of its power. Peasants whom were of the ethnic background of alot of the rich people in america. These peasants like things their way, and people are happy to let them have their way. Except ofcourse those who we have taken away from their homes, or colonised their homes.
I agree that all people are equal. I agree that those who we have visited suffering upon are more then equal to us. They require our sorrys and compensation.
But the fact remains that the recent past effects the present! The people that colonised these countries were white. So it's no surprise that these bigoted peasants are the ruleings class and that the culture is a christian one. And these countries wouldn't be the way they are without christians building them up. They just wouldn't. And everyone is thankful for the hard work white people have put in to build these countries.
Times are a changeing though and these countries are more of a co-op between racial/cultural types. As this continues, the west, the islamic world and the asian world will fade away and combine into one. As everyone industrilises and becomes "civilised."
Yes i know i say white people alot. But you know it's not something thats aknowleged enough. People think that we are "vanilla." or some shit and don't have any culture. We do, and we have built things too. That's not my identity being hurt, but rather it's important to know, for everyone.
TAKE WHAT IS YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: The White Anti-Racist Is an Oxymoron
by Yarrow » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:16 am
so whilst remaining pinky-beige, how can i lose my whiteness?
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Re: The White Anti-Racist Is an Oxymoron
by Guest » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:02 am
I don't know if someones said this already (this thread is very long) anyway... How does the colour of my ancestors play apart in my empathy towards anyone. Yes I'm white but it's not like whites have a collective mind and agree on everything. I didn't choose the colour of my skin nobody chose the colour of their skin, I don't ask for white privilages, racists give the privilages does that make me racist for someone elses actions. It is no more of an oxy-moron than an Asian racist (towards any race) I'm not trying to defend white supremacism but my right to empathize with other people no matter age, race, sexual orientation etc. I'm an anarchist this does not mean that I use it as my religion and try to fit to it, but because anarchism fits with my beliefs. No I may never experience racism first hand but I can see the effect it has on people and want to abolish racism. My actions are not based on a sense of I'm the white guy I'm here to help, nor are they based on pity for people being repressed but my disgust at people in hierarchical positions justifying their existence by repressing non whites to make themselves feel bigger.
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Re: The White Anti-Racist Is an Oxymoron
by Guest » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:36 am
note: empathy and sympathy are two different things. Empathy being the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and sympathy being the action of looking down on someone, being glad of your position while maintaing the facade of empathy
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Re: The White Anti-Racist Is an Oxymoron
by Guest » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:18 pm
InsecurityKiller is right, everything of worth that was built in the USA, south africa, australia, new zealand was built by white people, not a single swarthy type had anything to do with it.
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Re: The White Anti-Racist Is an Oxymoron
by Zazaban » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:51 pm
Guest wrote:InsecurityKiller is right, everything of worth that was built in the USA, south africa, australia, new zealand was built by white people, not a single swarthy type had anything to do with it.
I hope you're being sarcastic.
"I am but too conscious of the fact that we are born in an age when only the dull are treated seriously, and I live in terror of not being misunderstood."
~ Oscar Wilde
"Greed in its fullest sense is the only possible basis of communist society."
~ The Right to Be Greedy
~ Oscar Wilde
"Greed in its fullest sense is the only possible basis of communist society."
~ The Right to Be Greedy
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Re: The White Anti-Racist Is an Oxymoron
by Guest » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:51 am
why? will my post be removed (again) if i am not being sarcastic? is InsecurityKiller being sarcastic?
- Guest
Re: The White Anti-Racist Is an Oxymoron
by Zazaban » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:26 am
Guest wrote:why? will my post be removed (again) if i am not being sarcastic? is InsecurityKiller being sarcastic?
No, it won't be removed, but it is an extremely (and untrue) racist sentiment.
"I am but too conscious of the fact that we are born in an age when only the dull are treated seriously, and I live in terror of not being misunderstood."
~ Oscar Wilde
"Greed in its fullest sense is the only possible basis of communist society."
~ The Right to Be Greedy
~ Oscar Wilde
"Greed in its fullest sense is the only possible basis of communist society."
~ The Right to Be Greedy
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