Activist Scenes are No Safe Space for Women

[skullcap]

What really amuses me is that no matter how much women like Kropkitty and skullcap despise the fact that many women enjoy using their sexual charms to get attention from men, the numer of young women doing this seems to be increasing, not decreasing.

speaking for myself only i never said i despise "the fact" of women using their sexuality to get to men. i think it is stupid, but that is my experience, i don't see this tactic as viable. but as i said, this is my bias, i know women for whom it "works". but then they are stuck having to look pretty all their lives, and they are stuck with boorish men, who only care if they are pretty, and when the pretty fades, they are doubly stuck.

The fact remains, most women either enjoy having their bodies admired and lusted after, or are jealous of the women who are having their bodies admired and lusted after.

since this is a compound statement, you are quite wrong. there are lots of women who are neither of these. i thnk most people want to be thought of as nice looking, but i would not say that is the same as wanting rude comments tossed one's way, or having idiots leering at one's chest.

There is nothing sexist or homophobic about this observation - I love women,

this is a sexist statement. you do not know "women". you know some women, and those you may love, who cares. but to say you love "women" as a class of being, that is just a fantasy on your part, and sexist to boot.
all individual women are different, and your statement makes it clear you only care about the form, not the content, and that is sexist.

and think that all people have the right to pursue whatever sexuality is natural and fulfilling to them.

and no one here is saying anything different.

What I have a problem with is when so-called anarchists (who are really closet fascists) tell me that I must avert my eyes from some hot girl bouncing down the sidewalk in a low-cut stretch top.

i never said anything like this, and you are aware of this. look all you want, admire all you want. what i am saying is this; don't imput to all women that they like having men stare at their chests.

Anything put on display in a public space is fair game for ogling. If you don't like it, that is just too bad - try spending your time working for less oppression, instead of oppressing others, and you may find that more anarchists enjoy having you around.

it seems to me that most women, implants or no, would object to the idea that anytime they went in public their chest was "on display". of course, assholes are going to ogle others in public, that is par for the course, yet even people who want to be admired for their beauty have off days, times when they just want a quart of mile from the corner store. some who like being admired in a club or in the bedroom, don't care for the same attention from some stranger on the street.

women have been using the leverage of their sex over men since there has been men and women, this is not in dispute. when you are forced into a subordinate position you do what it takes to get by. some women use this technique, some women are jealous of other women using that technique, and some women don't care either way. this ebbs and flows with time and history as to which mode is in ascendency.

of course this whole conversation leaves out all talk of differently gendered folk, FTM, MTF, intesexed, etc. you just never know, that hot chick with the lovely tits may just have a cock bigger than yours.

[Gonzo Joker]

There is nothing sexist or homophobic about this observation - I love women,

this is a sexist statement. you do not know "women". you know some women, and those you may love, who cares. but to say you love "women" as a class of being, that is just a fantasy on your part, and sexist to boot.

all individual women are different, and your statement makes it clear you only care about the form, not the content, and that is sexist.

LOL. This is precisely why no one other than radical feminists take radical feminists seriously.

I doubt a single sane woman would take offense to the general statement that "I love women" other than a radical feminist. I love books, too, but there are particular books I dislike. Should those books I dislike the content of also be offended?

You and Kropkitty have unwittingly demonstrated extremely well why Kropkitty routinely provokes hostility from anarchist men. Most anarchists, male and female, are trying to liberate humanity from its oppressors, so that they may live as free and joyful human beings. Anyone who claims that statements such as "I love women" are sexist and offensive is a barrier to this goal, and certainly not an ally.

To paraphrase a well known female anarchist from the past, if I can't openly admire a great pair of breasts, I don't want to be part of your revolution!

[Yuda]

I don't think it was the actual statement "I love women" that caused offense it was the context it was used in - it reminds me of those "I'm not racist but..." statements

[Gonzo Joker]

The context was a simple observation that most women either enjoy having their bodies admired and lusted after, or are jealous of the women who are having their bodies admired and lusted after, and my opinion that all people have the right to pursue whatever sexuality is natural and fulfilling to them.

I would also say that most men also either enjoy having their bodies admired and lusted after, or are jealous of the men who are having their bodies admired and lusted after.

The desire to be desired is very natural and nearly universal. It is absurd to deny this, or to attack someone for pointing out this very obvious truth.

[Kropotkitten]

Emma Goldman would shit on you for that butchering of her quote, and not in an erotic and consensual manner.

You have a lot to learn about radical feminism if you think I'm a radical feminist.

[Gonzo Joker]

Emma Goldman would shit on you for that butchering of her quote.

How DARE you presume to speak for Emma Goldman?

That is the biggest crock of shit I have heard in weeks. I breathe new life into an old quote, and you think you have standing to speak for its originator?

I think Emma would love my paraphrase. Emma was a revolutionary, a free thinker, and a sexual being. Unlike you, Emma loved having her breasts admired by a man capable of appreciating their true beauty and glory.

You are not fit to type Emma Goldman's name on your keyboard, much less slander her good name with your idiocy.

[|Y|]

I somewhat unfortunate thing is that young females always attract more mates. Just a natural tendency that exists out there. Modern civilization has tried to compell mates to stick together for most of their lives. And it's not too bad of an idea. But there's always going to be that raw tendency. We'll get over it somehow, either by making it so that humans are eternally young (I'm not kidding) or by rewiring ourselves to not care about physical disposition. I think the former is more likely.

The decorative aspect of females in most societies is really to emphasize their youthful nature, because it represents fertility, health, etc. I think that western civilization has overdone it a bit, though.

[Steppenwolf]

I find it sad that this topic here merely accquired a discussion of "what would you do to rapists" revenge fantasies and then "feed the sexist troll".

You can find my comments on the piece at infoshop, although I'm admittedly not in the US scene, which seems a world away (boom-boom).



And yes, I don't care if the FBI get this IP *shrug*

[|Y|]

I don't quite see which comments were yours on the original article Steppenwolf.

[Gonzo Joker]

"feed the sexist troll".

LOL. Ad hominems like this always amuse me. Anti-sexuality activists who pretend to be anarchists really hate it when other anarchists point out the obvious - most people enjoy sex and spend considerable time and effort increasing the amount of sexual attention they get.

[|Y|]

Actually, I'd debate that, but perhaps this isn't the thread for it. I just think females are oppressed so much sexually that they don't enjoy it as much as men (though this could be an inadequacy on the mans part). But like I said, another discussion entirely.

It just reminded me of this quote I once read which went, "If women enjoyed sex as much as men, the world would collapse into chaos as humanity embarked on an unending sexual orgy."

[Gonzo Joker]

I guess it depends on who you talk to. I know plenty of women that are very sexual, and very much into enjoying sex. Sadly, none of them seem to be into anarchy, or at least discussing anarchy on Internet forums...

[jacobhaller]

Actually, I'd debate that, but perhaps this isn't the thread for it. I just think females are oppressed so much sexually that they don't enjoy it as much as men (though this could be an inadequacy on the mans part). But like I said, another discussion entirely.

It just reminded me of this quote I once read which went, "If women enjoyed sex as much as men, the world would collapse into chaos as humanity embarked on an unending sexual orgy."

I doubt many people, men or women or intersexual, would want more than 4hrs of sex on the average day. I doubt most people would want more than 2hrs. It does seem strange that there can be a shortage of sex...

[Steppenwolf]

The fact remains, most women either enjoy having their bodies admired and lusted after, or are jealous of the women who are having their bodies admired and lusted after.

LOL. Ad hominems like this always amuse me. Anti-sexuality activists who pretend to be anarchists really hate it when other anarchists point out the obvious - most people enjoy sex and spend considerable time and effort increasing the amount of sexual attention they get.

That's right, young man, women require men to validate their sexuality. And they dress provocatively to entice your approval, which you then should signal to them thus improving their own self-image, as its largely predicated on male concepts of what is "attractive" and what isn't and thus "causes them to be jealous" if they're lacking in this field and thus not getting your attention. *sigh* You might want to discover Rubins paintings one day, and mull over that "attractive" is a highly fluid and culturally based set of criteria, one that is usually set by one gender (male) rather than the other (female). Look into "size 0" models, muppet.

However, I'll make this really simple for you:

I'm pro sex. I enjoy it. I enjoy it when my partner(s) enjoy it. I do it quite a lot, as its cheaper & more healthy than drugs. I don't have hang-ups about it. Number #1 turn on - an active mind, not your cosmetic-enhanced fashion get-up. However, confusing people who call you on your bizarrely immature concepts of desire, and human sexuality with "anti-sexuality" activists is just insulting. Try doing a bit of research into the cosmetics industry (negative image re-enforcement, maintaining artificial constructs via media manipulation (air brushing / digital enhancement) and so on), the actual arguments of feminists on the issues, regarding power / dominance and so forth, and the power imbalances, and capitalist desire-machine, that places desire onto commodities, not people, enforcing people to use said commodities to enable desire and so forth. At the moment you read like either a) someone whose understanding of gender is severly lacking, who clearly hasn't been near any decent anarchist thought other than "black As are like cool and the chicks are loose!!" or b) a troll, looking for some self-validation / attention. I'd bother arguing. However, the level of conversation isn't really there, and I've better things to do than argue the toss with some confused immature male, who needs the attention. This is me being nice: if you're not a troll, and actually a) then you've my pity. Not part of the solution, part of the problem and all that.

You aside, the original article had faults, but raised my concern levels. @IyI My longer comments (made on the fly) are probably underneath it in the comment field, on the infoshop site.

[Gonzo Joker]

The fact remains, most women either enjoy having their bodies admired and lusted after, or are jealous of the women who are having their bodies admired and lusted after.

LOL. Ad hominems like this always amuse me. Anti-sexuality activists who pretend to be anarchists really hate it when other anarchists point out the obvious - most people enjoy sex and spend considerable time and effort increasing the amount of sexual attention they get.

That's right, young man, women require men to validate their sexuality. And they dress provocatively to entice your approval, which you then should signal to them thus improving their own self-image, as its largely predicated on male concepts of what is "attractive" and what isn't and thus "causes them to be jealous" if they're lacking in this field and thus not getting your attention. *sigh* You might want to discover Rubins paintings one day, and mull over that "attractive" is a highly fluid and culturally based set of criteria, one that is usually set by one gender (male) rather than the other (female). Look into "size 0" models, muppet.

I will ignore the ad hominem attack, and instead debunk your erroneous assumptions and assertions.

The "size 0" models are in women's mags, not men's mags. The women you find on the cover of mens mags are usually voluptuous, as most men (me included) like women with lots of sexy curves. I am not attracted to anorexic stick figure women, and frankly don't know many men who are....

I do notice that the 18 to 25 year old women I personally know, virtually without exception, all try to play up their feminine sexuality as much as possible, and seem to really get off on sexual attention from men. I see nothing wrong with this - I let them have their fun, and I have mine. I also work out and do what I can to be physically attractive to women, btw (No, I am totally not into fashion or any metro crap, hun, so calm down your imagination lol).

Btw, it are your feminist heroes that have turned me off to the whole movement. As Andrea Dworkin said, "Only when manhood is dead - and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it - only then will we know what it is to be free."

I don't buy it, and from what I have seen and heard from most of the women I know, the vast majority of women don't either.