Activist Scenes are No Safe Space for Women

[Vlad]

Anyone want to talk more about this? I find it a pervasive problem. I find that it is excused, encouraged and ignored. I find that men in particular will go to great lengths to protect one another from truly confronting all aspects of this issue. I also find that some "strong" women are weak in the face of such violence, repression and oppression. I find that some at different points in their lives have sought out such relationships and even rationaly admit it, deconstruct it and do it anyway. I know men whom admit they do it, seek out those whom to dominate, cry and tell people they are sick and then continue to do it anyway. I find it a sickness and complex issue with no easy solutions or answers.

In my local community we had a male that was involved in Anarchist soccer, a Infoshop project and other community events. This person and his partner were always in some sort of relationship upheavel. Niether one were particularly mentaly stable. They were both violent with one another. One of our local "alpha" anarchist males whom presented himself as the preimmenent contact and face of anarchism befriended the man in this relationship. The man was a psychotic with paranoid schizophrenia and was on anti-psychotics (until his partner convinced him the medication was bad and to be more natural he should stop taking it). He was in his early forties and she was 19 at the time. The woman had been in and out of mental institutions before and was not weel as I knew her personaly and can attest to it. We all befriended them both and thought it would be helpful to them if they had something to give meaning to their lives other than drugs and violence. Fast forward a year and they seemed to be doing very well in comparison to the previous year. They still argued and fought but had decided to seperate as it was best for both and had actually taken the steps to do so. She moved out and he was working on a loft project somehwere in the city. Both were artists and now were becoming very involved and known in the greater community. Things seemed to be looking up I suppose.

She came to us one night and asked if our (what was then our core and entire community consisted of under ten "anarchists") community could meet. That night she retold a story of going back to that appartment a few days earlier to retreive the rest of her belongings as they both had been doing over the course of a month and while there took a quick shower and while leaving found this man walking in to do the same. She said some arguing took place and that he told her she needed a stiff dick and proceded to rape her while she cried and asked him please to stop over and over. He didn't and these some days later she said she didn't want to invovle the police and that she wasn't asking anything of us other than to be careful around this person and that she was moving on and gettting away from the whole city. She talked about how she wanted to do more and it was so fucked up and she was crying and asking us to just be careful and asking if we would tell any future partners of his that he has a history of this and that all along she knew he did and that a few of his past partners had warned her etc.

She left and we all felt pretty fucked up about it. We talked about it for days discussing all the ins and outs of mental illness, possible lies, benifit of doubt, happening again, violence, feeling like police, how can one judge one word against another, what we should do etc.

After much debate and a collective statement by all of the women that they felt uneasy around this person at all times and that they as women would not be comfortable around this person alone at anytime (as well as one recounting some creepy advances made by this person) we came to consensus that this person would not be allowed at any of our community events, happenings etc. and that if this person desired a relationship with us that they would have to fufill some obligations to us as unfair as it might feel. The male anarchist whoom had befriended him the most provided much counter arguments and defense; appropriate to be sure in such heafty matters. We explained in a drafted explanation that we cared about both of them as human beings and that we believed they required medical care/counseling and that this would be a requirement of acceptance back into our community. We also required that at all times this person was to be "escorted" by another trusted male at social and community events and that until which time we felt comfortable he wouldn't be allowed to be at any functions and was effectively banished from our community. It was lot more complex than this and there were other reasons and requirements and etc. but this in a nutshell is what was decided.

Unfortunately (or fortunately as it wasn't an easy decision and I still feel fucked up about having to decide something like this) this person disapeared when it was revealed that she came to us. After months of almost daily interaction he was nowhere to be found. A few weeks later the male anarchist whom was his friend said that he had been in constant interaction with him and that he didn't come around because of what he thought we though of him. This male anarchist stated that he believed him and that he thought the woman was lying or just confused. She did have verifiable history of making things up and lying about similair things only to admit it later as being done in retribution and laughing about it; we all knew this from the begining. But so did the man have a verifiable history of sexual violence. Pretty even...tough case. We thought best to err on the side of safety and be as compassionate and helpful as possible while keeping it to ourselves in case she was not telling the truth. A compromise of sorts. We tried to arrange a another community gathering with him to hear his side of the story as he had stated a desire to remain active in our circles but he declined. We thus considered the whole thing in the past and hopefully we would never have to ask him to leave for he had removed himself so it seemed.

Fast forward about six months later and there was a large influx of folks to our community and the Infoshop was off the ground. On our opening night this man showed up and was found to be hitting on a group of sixteen year old women. When a few of our women comrades observed this they rounded as many of us together as could be found and made a quick decision that I would quietly ask him to leave and let him know it was a collective decision. I did at which point he just turned away and ignored me. I touched his shoulder and spoke softly in his ear that he was gonna have to leave at which point he turned around and started yelling, "fuck that bitch..she's a fucking liar, she's a fucking whore etc." and told us that could hear that this anarchist whom we had all known forever and was our "self appointed face to the community" invited him. He stayed for about five minutes to display he could be anywhere he wanted and then left. After the event this anarchist man, another male friend, two women comrades and myself went to have drinks and conversation at a restraunt where upon we spoke of why he would invite this person. At this point our comrades argument was that since there were so many new people involved in our collective that this past resolution was not binding any longer. He also stated that I had caused it and started it because I had become physicaly violent. I asked him how he could have gathered that and he said, "becasue he told me so". I was enraged and asked him why he would beleiev this person whom he'd known only a short while over the rest of us and me. He just repeated what he had previously said (at which point I threatned to kick his ass if he didn't stop lying) and then got up and removed myself from the situation. Needless to say we are not very good friends anymore and the origional group/collective have become estranged.

We had few meetings over the course of the next few weeks to talk about what had happened and as it was we had to rehash the whole thing and it was a big ordeal. We found that this accused rapist had been very active on the peripheral of our community and was fairly close with the surrounding community of artists and those whom were new to our group. A number of these new people (mostly women) said they had had bad experiences/run ins with him recently and also felt uncomfortable. We had to have whole new community disccussion devoid of any testament from the origional people involved and it was pretty chaotic. In the end the origional decision was upheld and although this was the case no one would enforce it and to this day this person still comes around as freely as he did as though nothing ever happened.

I find this exact same thing happens all the time. I've seen three almost identical eepisodes in the last two and a half years. Two of those are not even in question as being rapists and they come freely in and out of our circles and have sexualy assaulted other women.

Does this happen in your communities?

How as anarchist would you deal with it or have dealt with it? These are real life things we will and do have to deal with and they are not easy and they are not pretty.

[Din]

On our opening night this man showed up and was found to be hitting on a group of sixteen year old women. When a few of our women comrades observed this they rounded as many of us together as could be found and made a quick decision that I would quietly ask him to leave and let him know it was a collective decision. I did at which point he just turned away and ignored me.

Why did you all decided to talk with the man and not the group of sixteen years old?

He also stated that I had caused it and started it because I had become physicaly violent. I asked him how he could have gathered that and he said, "becasue he told me so". I was enraged and asked him why he would beleiev this person whom he'd known only a short while over the rest of us and me. He just repeated what he had previously said (at which point I threatned to kick his ass if he didn't stop lying)

How was your threat to kick his ass not demonstrative of your becoming physically violent?

How as anarchist would you deal with it or have dealt with it?

Talk to the women?

[Post_industrial]

If it was up to me, I would use violence to deal with the situation. Possibly deadly violence if I felt strongly enough about it.

I have no sympathy for rapists.

[Poop]

If it was up to me, I would use violence to deal with the situation. Possibly deadly violence if I felt strongly enough about it.

I have no sympathy for rapists.

This is such a common attitude amongst men, and honestly I think it stems from their own personal insecurity. "If someone raped (-my female-) X I would kill them."

The first thing I always wonder, "why doesn't she kill him, if that is what she wants done?" Which of course leads to the second question, "does she think it is necessary or worthwhile to kill her attacker?"

I know a number of women who have been raped. So do most guys, though I suspect they are mostly unaware of it themselves. Instead of viewing this as an attack on another individual, a horrible one, the patriarchy around us has made it the "ultimate property violation". And because women are seen as implicitly powerless, it is a violation requiring the "ultimate solution" -carried out by men, of course.

Women are not the property of men, this means that they do not need to be saved by the men around them. What they need is to be viewed as the equals they are, respected as sovereign individuals, so that men stop trying to dominate them and subject them to some school boy fantasy world with masculine heros and violent retribution poised behind every percieved slight.

But, as usual, 90% of the men who read this will not absorb it at all. They will either reject it outright or think something along the lines of "well of course, that is what I meant," while still carrying around this implicit mindset that is in fact a primary source of the problem. And that is the thing they will all agree on immediately, "my way of thinking is not the source of this problem." Times like that make me think that the radical feminists might actually be right, the best thing for a woman wanting to be free is to remove herself from men completely until (if ever) they finally figure out what they are doing to perpetuate the problem.


And I'm not sure given the ambiguity of the statement, but just in case there is any doubt: Yes men are raped by other men, they can also be raped by women, and in both cases the assault upon their bodies is magnified in their mind because of the self-image forced upon them by the society that keeps both genders locked in chains. That few people ever here of this, or worse that most people don't even recognise it when confronted with it, just speaks to the scale of the problem.

[Post_industrial]

I dont think its male supremicist to feel the need to attack a rapist.

Obviously there are men who are weak, and women who are strong. There are a few women martial artists I have trained with who could easily kill a small group of larger males relativly quickly and without any weapons.

Obviously, if a child is the one who is the victim of rape, nobody would say you are being ageist for stating a fact that the child is not strong enough to slay his/her attacker, or else they might have done so while being attacked.

There is also no reason why the vitcim should not also take part in the beating (Or worse*) of the attacker. There is strength in numbers, and both men and women should feel free to use violence against rapists when a fellow anarchist either male or female of any age is raped by another person.

It has nothing to do with a hero complex.

Its just comon decency.

[Tom]

Or the need to feel like the protector of females?

The people who need to decide what happens to their attackers are the victims. It's more than likely that in most cases of sexual assault, the victims just try to stay as far away from their attacker as possible, as in this case too.

The hero complex that Kevin was talking about is a cousin to the complex that leads men to rape women. Both are because of some feeling of dominance, and a need to show it; one is seen as "benevolant", and the other is obviously evil. Both need to be destroyed.

[Guest]

Why did you all decided to talk with the man and not the group of sixteen years old?

Because the women of our community wanted him to leave and that is what was asked of us. Him being physicaly violent (bit a young man of 17 ear off a few months earlier for "moving in on his territory" and ripped some other kids dreads out for the same offense. They asked if any of us whom were stronger would be willing to do it because of his violence in past and I'm not afraid of much so I said I would be willing.

How was your threat to kick his ass not demonstrative of your becoming physically violent?

This question doesn't make sense. I never made a statement that this sentence would follow from so I can't answer it. To answer it would imply that I had made a statement that my threat to kick my friends ass was not demonstrative of my becoming physicaly violent and no where in my writing have I made this assertion.

What your confusing is the statement about how the accused rapist later told people (my freind included) I HAD physicaly attacked him when I confronted him and asked him to leave. Which was so far removed from the truth it's unbelievable; almost everybody whom formed the core of our collective was watching at a close distance and I doubt none of the people around him knew I was even talking to him it so subtle...untill he started screaming and yelling that is.

What are you getting at anyway out of curiosity?

Talk to the women?

I find this a very simplistic answer to a very complex situation and not reflective thereof. Which women are you refering to, would you mind qualifying this statement?

If it was up to me, I would use violence to deal with the situation. Possibly deadly violence if I felt strongly enough about it. -Post-industrial

I think a lot of people would feel the same way.

I have no sympathy for rapists. -Post-industrial

Me either. But this person was only an accused rapist...no definitive proof other that "she said-he said". Although a few other women later recounted some preditory type behavior of him. I wouldn't want to hurt someone or do anything besides provide for my own and my communities protection in case there are no absolutes. Much like I'm against the death penalty (of course as it stands now it's a statist institution and I'm against the state

[Din]

Because the women of our community wanted him to leave and that is what was asked of us. Him being physicaly violent (bit a young man of 17 ear off a few months earlier for "moving in on his territory" and ripped some other kids dreads out for the same offense. They asked if any of us whom were stronger would be willing to do it because of his violence in past and I'm not afraid of much so I said I would be willing.

All well and good, but the group of sixteen years old should still be informed of the man, no?

What your confusing is the statement about how the accused rapist later told people (my freind included) I HAD physicaly attacked him when I confronted him and asked him to leave. Which was so far removed from the truth it's unbelievable; almost everybody whom formed the core of our collective was watching at a close distance and I doubt none of the people around him knew I was even talking to him it so subtle...untill he started screaming and yelling that is.

Okay, I'm accepting your explanation here.

I find this a very simplistic answer to a very complex situation and not reflective thereof. Which women are you refering to, would you mind qualifying this statement?

Yes, it's a very simplistic answer but I'm afraid I have nothing more to offer. What I was thinking was that by talking to the women in your community, you are empowering them with the knowledge than you have of this man - and they will then be able to decide if they want to associate with him any further based on what you have to say to them.

Me either. But this person was only an accused rapist...no definitive proof other that "she said-he said".

Not that unusual, really.

[Din]

I have no sympathy for rapists.

I do.

Many perpetrators of sexual abuse have experience in being sexual abused themselves, although obviously not all victims of sexual abuse would end up being an abuser.

Monsters are victims too.

[Post_industrial]

I have no sympathy for rapists.

I do.

Many perpetrators of sexual abuse have experience in being sexual abused themselves, although obviously not all victims of sexual abuse would end up being an abuser.

Monsters are victims too.

Your a kinder person then I am in this regard. If I didnt kill the person, for whatever reason thinking he*/she was not of sain mind, I would beat them within an inch of their life, and lecture them while they think they are about to die.

For me it isnt about the one victim. Its about protection of the entire community.

Especialy in casses of multiple attacks, I reject the notion that consensus on the part of all victims is nessisary for the use of violence against such attackers. If even one victims were to ask me to "take care of them*" I would do it free of charge, as we have done a few times befor.

The event I mentioned at the rainbow gathering there was a bunch of hippie pacifists protecting this guy from me, but I guartentee that there alot more people then just me who know what he has been doing, and are waiting to catch him alone.

About the nicest thing I would concider, if the community realy felt he wasnt too much of a threat and is the victim of abuse himself is maybe to drug the person with Jimson weed or some other narcotic, tie him to a tree naked and poor honey on him so the insects eat his skin. Maybe put a sign over his head saying rapist, and let him go on the third day. During this time let any of his victims do as they like to him, or just let leave them alone if they dont want to see him. They could also do it black block style if they dont want him to know who they are.

I would do the same if a man raped another man. Its not nessisarily about an attitude twards protecting women, but protecting all members of my community.

I know that if somebody raped me, I would appreciate any help in tracking this person down and killing him. I wouldnt accuse those who volonteer to help me do this of being macho in my defense. I would just say thank you for helping me. This is why I cant relate to the example Kevin gave.

Perhaps the victim should have some say over what should be done. However, when there are multiple victims, I would say that each attack is seperate, and it would not require consensus among all victims to do something worse then just kicking himself out of the gathering or activist circle. Each victims can decide their own punishment perhaps, and the attacker will recieve all of them, and maybe then some.

[Post_industrial]

But one thing that might be more empowering to women is teaching them how to fight. If the victims were all women (Not always the case) perhaps it would be cool to see a group of women take this guy down, perhaps even arming them.

Women cant be excellent fighters, especialy if they learn Dim Mak or pressure point strikes, or any art that relies on stealth evasion.

Encouraging women to be warriors to counteract this trend of society telling them that they are only beautifull if they are weak and docile might do more to prevent rape then letting a group punish the person after the fact.

[Tom]

Wouldn't trying to sort out the problems that lead these people to seek to dominate others be a better solution than naked violence?

Wouldn't helping them resolve it be a more effective method of disarming their aggression?

Woah, talking like that makes me sound like somesort of crazy anarchist or something.

[Post_industrial]

I dont realy think its always possible to talk to these people.

This james in the rain guy was merely asked to sit down in a non-violent council with a few of his victims as a serial rapist, and the group was mostly filled with people like you who were protecting this guy from people like me.

He wouldnt even sit through the council, and pulled a knife on somebody who asked him to please sit through the meeting.

Some of these people have no concience at all, and rape people becuase they enjoy it, dont care if they hurt others or what you have to say about it.

There may be times where some people can be gotten to with the help of a councilor, but I dont think its always possible.

I dont believe in non-violence at all. I like the idea of letting the victims decide what will happen to them rather then adopting a dogmatic code of non-violence even against violent attackers.

[Tom]

I dont believe in non-violence at all. I like the idea of letting the victims decide what will happen to them rather then adopting a dogmatic code of non-violence even against violent attackers.

I don't either.

I just think it's far preferable to try to sort out the problems in the first place than to start with the hero stuff.

Most rapists have serious problems with dominance, usually as a result of other people's dominance throughout their lives. If they get dominated by another (eg you beating the crap out of them) then its quite likely that they'll leave to just find another weak target.

I'm not criticising the actions of someone who would defend themself from someone trying to assault them. I'm criticising the complex Kevin identified, way back when he posted.

[Post_industrial]

I dont realy agree tom. I think there are many reason why someone might rape another person.

Rape is also something that happens to other men, so I reject the idea that its purely about males with a hero complex. I know women who have desired to kill the men who have molested their children, and I doubt anyone would call that a hero complex.

If it was my good freind or family member who was raped, I would kill the person.

If it was somebody I didnt know, or the group was already handling it I may work with whatever process was being decided opon.

Just letting them go likes its not big deal is the worst thing you could possibly do.