Activist Scenes are No Safe Space for Women

[sparrow]

I think that it is possible to create safe activist spaces.

First - there should be some general guidelines for behavior. It should be made absolutely clear that abuse - physical or mental/emotional - of other individuals, male or female will not be tolerated.

Second - hold trainings and discussions on the issues of violence, conflict resolution, sexual assault and gender relations. This will help to increase awareness of the potential problems and make it easier for survivors of abuse to come forward.

Third - hold self defense classes for the women members. Being able to defend one's self is important. However, self defense classes are not sufficient (Having a 1st dan in Tae Kwon Do did not protect me from being in abusive relationships. In fact, in someways it made it harder for me to understand the abuse - since I was supposed to be tough.). Make sure that women in the group know that they have value and the right to establish boundaries even with individuals with whom they have been sexually intimate.

Four - group members should look out for each other. If you see something that seems amiss - bruises, depression etc. offer help. Often survivors are afraid or don't know what to do.

Please don't let the discussion become bogged down in questions over whether one should attack the abuser - act as a hero or something. First I'm not sure how that would help the survivor. I was married to a emotionally abusive man who was becoming physically abusive (slammed me into a wall) when I left. I finally hauled off and hit him. It didn't really help me at all and could have evolved into a very dangerous situation. All it did was prove that I could hit him. What did help was support from my friends and family, counseling and establishing new positive relationships based upon mutual respect.

[Post_industrial]

Thank you for the imput sparrow. I would like to respond on a point by point basis, and maybe encourage others to do so.

This thread is already a little bogged down with the violence issue, so if you feel inclined to open a new thread calling it something like "Creating safe spaces for women, it may be more productive then this one.

First - there should be some general guidelines for behavior. It should be made absolutely clear that abuse - physical or mental/emotional - of other individuals, male or female will not be tolerated.

I totaly agree. The worst thing we can do is turn a blind eye. I dont see opposition to rape as being authoritarian, but rather the opposite, as rape is an authoritarian act. It should not be tolorated, and rapists should not feel safe doing it.

Second - hold trainings and discussions on the issues of violence, conflict resolution, sexual assault and gender relations. This will help to increase awareness of the potential problems and make it easier for survivors of abuse to come forward.

I definitly agree. Excellent idea.

Third - hold self defense classes for the women members. Being able to defend one's self is important. However, self defense classes are not sufficient (Having a 1st dan in Tae Kwon Do did not protect me from being in abusive relationships. In fact, in someways it made it harder for me to understand the abuse - since I was supposed to be tough.). Make sure that women in the group know that they have value and the right to establish boundaries even with individuals with whom they have been sexually intimate.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Taekwondo is not a Self Defense art. Taekwondo is a sport that encorporates some fighting elements, but it is in no way a practical method of self defense that should be relied on in actual combat situations.

I study Ninjutsu, which is bassed on Japenese assasin's arts that developed in the Iga and Koga provinces when certain clans went into hidding. Its not a sport, and we dont have compititions for obvious reasons. There are other practical self defense arts other then this, but you should be aware that most arts are either sports or excercise, and are especialy bastardized when taught inside the US.

Read this. http://aia.mahost.org/sec_defense.html
I could probibly write something better, but I havnt gotten around to it yet.

Four - group members should look out for each other. If you see something that seems amiss - bruises, depression etc. offer help. Often survivors are afraid or don't know what to do.

Recently I have been accused of being sexist for thinking women cant look after themselves.

I do think women can look out for themselves, but I see no reason why we should not help anyone who needs it regardless of sex. If I would help another man, or a child who is in trouble, why should I not also help a women, especialy if they ask?

I dont understand why or how that contributes to partirarchy just becuase Im concerned for the well being of another sister.

Please don't let the discussion become bogged down in questions over whether one should attack the abuser - act as a hero or something. First I'm not sure how that would help the survivor. I was married to a emotionally abusive man who was becoming physically abusive (slammed me into a wall) when I left. I finally hauled off and hit him. It didn't really help me at all and could have evolved into a very dangerous situation. All it did was prove that I could hit him. What did help was support from my friends and family, counseling and establishing new positive relationships based upon mutual respect.

I do feel that sexual predators who attack random people should be deal with diferently then couples in relationships where one person cannot control their anger, and the other person cant find the strength to leave. There is a fundamental diference in motivation, and a fundamental diference in how it should be dealt with, though of course there are still common issues of violence and control.

In the case of the abusive relationship, either the abusive party (Probibly the dude- but not nessisarily)...that person needs help controling their anger, jealously, and issues of control. The victimized party (Not that we should allow ourselves to adopt the mentality of victims) needs to be strong enough to not tolorate these acts, and have the strength to leave if things do not change.

This is fundamentaly diferent from a rapist who was never invited in the first place. Violence is not always nessisary to protect the victim, though it is one way to make someone leave if they continue to stalk someone who has made it very clear that they dont want to be followed or raped.

[Yuda]

I read something somewhere - might have been here, but it was a good point an bears repeating....

assuming that a rapist is innocent until proven guilty is the same as assuming the person raped is a lair until proven other wise

[Y]

Hmm, I didn't notice this thread before, I guess my blatant sexism blinded me. It's interesting to read about these problems that have occured in communities here. I personally don't know how to handle freaks like that guy, but I felt there was a sense of gossip going about. I think Din was right that, in that last instance, that the 16 year old girls should've been notified of his behavior. I think this sort of stuff should be way way out in the open. Who is accepted or not should not be some private matter between people who like or dislike one another. Ideally, one who is disliked is ignored by the vast majority, and they feel uncomfortable and leave. If this were to have happened, the guy probably would've went off, then everyone sees what a fuckup he is, and he leaves. (Of course, then he could come back with a gun and blow everyones brains out, but that's another matter entirely.)

But in any case, nothing is achieved when ones feelings are kept to their little private circle of friends. The "women of the community" should've been completely open with their disagreement of him there, rather than talking to Vlad and so on, it is simply mind boggling that such an issue is not out in the open for everyone to see. I have had plenty of people come down on me behind my back, and really hurts when they cannot face up to it and they "pretend to be your friends" because they're trying to "have a sense of community." Community while talking about someone behind their back? Yeah, okay. Open it up people.

In any case, I made similar comments that Post made before, about killing a rapist, but my real tendencies are far more passive than that. The comment was made in the context of rage, which of course, everyone is entitled to. It has absolutely no basis in reality, becuase we don't know what happens until it does. I know one person who was raped repeatedly for many years as a child (man she is so freakishly kinky in bed, too, it shows; I mean, what?), her response to it was to just move on, and never talk to the person again. It works, she has no hate for them or anything like that. Sometimes I think she lets too many men sleep with her, but, again, this is her life, and this is how she goes about things. We've talked about it before, and in the end, it was decided that as long as she was happy, whatever she does is fine (of course, I'm kind of tangent-talking here).

I think Post is trying to rationalize a feeling of rage that he imagines that he would have if someone raped someone dear to him. But you cannot rationalize it. Either it happens or it doesn't. Talking about it is just bullshit.

[Post_industrial]

That was one of your more sensible posts Y.

First off, I was accused of having a hero fantasy and an ego complex. Later I had to explain to people who didnt seem to be paying attention that I have personaly been asked to assist the victims of rape in 3 instances, and have only had to kick somones ass once. Another time the person left only after hearing that I was comming for him, making it so I didnt have to. And the third time I was asked not to hurt him under any circumstances unless he attacked me.

Some of my ealier posts on this thread do in fact have to do with rationalizing a feeling of rage I feel when I think of these real life events, or other future events that may occur that are simmiler.


Idealy, you are right. If steps can be made to help these women feel safe talking about it in the open, then all women will be safer.

However, only 1 of the 3 casses I have been asked to help with did the victim feel comfortable speaking about it in front of a group, and especialy in front of their attacker.

You and Din are totaly right that these women should have felt safe, but the point is that they didnt, for whatever reason.

So rather then blamming these women for not feeling comfortable speaking out about it, we need to as a preventitive measure help everyone feel safer speaking openly about it, but also realize that sometimes people have serious issues of fear confronting their attacker in front of a group. It may not be something they can control, and it shouldnt always be assumed that a victim will be willing to confront their attacker in front of their community.

[Y]

I think that, okay, this is going to be controversial, but I think that rape is considered bad, and thus, those who have been raped, feel dirty or bad about themselves. (This by no means is me saying that I think rape is good, but yeah.) So I think the sentiment should be more along the lines, of say, "sexual theft," not "dirty abusive rapeness."

Consider if someone were to take things of others. No one would have any problem saying "hey, that guy goes around taking our shit without asking" and so on.

In my experience, when rape comes up, everyone goes quiet, some people get angry, others feel very shitty about themselves. Indeed, most females I've met who have been raped, go on about it in sort of a victim-complex sort of thing, not ever letting go. I think that holding on to this something is more important than letting go, because then it depreciates the significance of the rape. "I was raped and yet I'm supposed to forget about it?"

No, don't forget about it, totally, just make it known! Because, doesn't the rapist win if you go on with your life with it bundled up inside you (especially if you never warn others?)?

Not only did the rapist take something from you, but they gave you something you do not need, a burden that one shouldn't have.

[Vlad]

I read something somewhere - might have been here, but it was a good point an bears repeating....

assuming that a rapist is innocent until proven guilty is the same as assuming the person raped is a lair until proven other wise

-Yuda

This is pretty much how I felt and feel.

I still feel no resolution or that any more has been brought to light that everyone here talking hasn't already thought. I can see in every comment a thought I've had regarding the situation and I'm sure you can as well.

I attended GPAN over this last weekend and some "anarchist" men had sexually touched some women at the close of the first day's meet and greet/housing sign in against their will and welcome. Apperently there was more questionable behaviour in the form of preditory sexual advances, sexist language and general lewd behaviours.

It was a small part of the whole conference and some of these men only came for "party" rather than the networking, workshops and general meeting.

The women in question made a pretty big deal at the time of it happening in front of everyone and it stopped.

Unfortunately no one was willing to discuss it and only now after the general meeting is it being brought up as a major problem on our discussion board online. I would have rather dealt with it face to face in the general meeting.

I wasn't at the "parties" I was at the "chill space" with my other comrades from KC.

I felt that this problem superceded everything else at the time and still do. If my female comrades cannot feel safe, are not safe and have no meaningful solidarity or mutual aid (other than talk).....I feel so impotent...I don't know what to do.

I find that this behaviour continues everywhere I go regardless of what the scene. How do we combat this? How do we subvert this authoritarian tendency and hierarchical social relationship without becoming what we seek to subvert?

What can one do to help those whom are reluctent to help themselves if we cannot even proide a safe and comfortable space to help nurture this?

I truly believe one cannot liberate another but that one can facilitate, through creation of practical and sustainable alternative social and economic relationships, self liberation.

How do we create these spaces, relationships and paradigm?

What can I do more than talking about it? More workshops? Zines? I find all of the usual suspects to be futile and betraying the real violence/disease.

I'm tired of talking I want to create.....I want to destroy the chains that bind. I want more and I want my comrades to want it for themselves.

[Post_industrial]

I understand the premise that you cannot liberate others on a mental, or "Spiritual" level, but can only give suggestions, and hope that others choose liberation for themselves of their own free will.

However, I think that this idea that you cannot liberate others, which was bassed on some amount of truth, is being taken to excess, and applied in ways that are not rational.

I admire certain actions of the ALF. Not all anarchists are nessisarily advocates of animal liberation, but I certainly am. I do not believe that these animals can free themselves from their physical cages or escape tourture in lab testing if we only "Give them space, and let them liberate themselves". Its not realisitc.

Likewise, you cannot empower another woman (Or man) against their will. You cannot choose for them to take the path of liberation, becuase only they can make that choice.

However, if sometimes cries "Help!", whoever they are, I reject the notion that responding to a request for help is in any way authoritarian, or in any way inhibits their ability to pursue their own path of liberation. Its just a matter of looking out for each others physical safety.

[Vlad]

I understand the premise that you cannot liberate others on a mental, or "Spiritual" level, but can only give suggestions, and hope that others choose liberation for themselves of their own free will.

However, I think that this idea that you cannot liberate others, which was bassed on some amount of truth, is being taken to excess, and applied in ways that are not rational.

I admire certain actions of the ALF. Not all anarchists are nessisarily advocates of animal liberation, but I certainly am. I do not believe that these animals can free themselves from their physical cages or escape tourture in lab testing if we only "Give them space, and let them liberate themselves". Its not realisitc.

Likewise, you cannot empower another woman (Or man) against their will. You cannot choose for them to take the path of liberation, becuase only they can make that choice.

However, if sometimes cries "Help!", whoever they are, I reject the notion that responding to a request for help is in any way authoritarian, or in any way inhibits their ability to pursue their own path of liberation. Its just a matter of looking out for each others physical safety.

Agreed.

I take it that this notion was not easily seen as implied in what i said? I've found a number of others to make this same remark when I speak of self-liberation versus "liberation from above". I've always found the distinction you make to be inherent and given but there must be a problem so from now on I'll make sure there can be no mistake. niether here nor there really just the nature of the abstraction that is the internet

What do you think of what I asked? How do we approach this and create a safe space that will be conducive to liberatory relationships?

Its seeming to me that the answer is inherent. I've looked at what I just wrote for a few minutes and I believe that the intentional creation of these relationships is the answer. Sometimes I cannot see the forrest for the trees

Just as there will never be a libertarian "revolution" so to speak, the revolution is in the struggle everyday to realize egalitarian relationships in place of authoritarian and hierarchical social, economic and personal relationships, so too will there never a dramatic elimination of societal ills such as rape or other preditory behaviour.

Just as we create alternatives to capitalism and hierarchy, with a mind to do so, we must also pursue that these alternative spaces are safe and these negative and counter revolutionary behaviours have unpleasent results. It must be a popular goal for us however and that means literature and workshops and discussion at meetings and gatherings and all the things I was calling....

What can I do more than talking about it? More workshops? Zines? I find all of the usual suspects to be futile and betraying the real violence/disease.

It means calling it out everytime and not letting it be "no big deal" or written off as drunken behaviour.

You ever hear that specials song... "Racist Friend" I think is the title?

Yeah...I think thats where I'm going with this.

After all, it's not as though sexual coercion and violence are seperate from any other societal ills; all which can be reduced to the greatest degree possible through working to subvert and replace hierarchical and authoritarian relationships. This aspect of the whole just needs to be louder and more prominant. As men, we are undoubtably the larger perveyor of sexual violence in NA (perhaps world over). As men, individualy and collectively, it seems the responsibility falls squarely on our shoulders to bare the burden of doing a large part in creating an enviroment that is conducive to self-liberation in this regard. We cannot just hope that this aspect falls in line when other areas are more libertarian; we must pro-actively seek it rather than lokk to solve as reactionary after the fact (which would be even more difficult). Nothing will ever be perfect but we can lessen the ills to a very great extent for ourselves and thus others. Cannot have the individual without the social and cannot have the social without individuals.

I've got work to do to round out the world I seek!

Any thoughts?

[Vlad]

Just as there will never be a libertarian "revolution" so to speak, the revolution is in the struggle everyday to realize egalitarian relationships in place of authoritarian and hierarchical social, economic and personal relationships, so too will there never a dramatic elimination of societal ills such as rape or other preditory behaviour.

I just wanted to qualify this a little more.

"dramatic elimination of societal ills such as rape or other preditory behaviour."

by "dramtic" I meant no "overnight" or "all at once" not large.

I believe that we can attain, and thus I strive for, a large change. I can only imagine that there will be a large change when everyones basic needs are met and our power relations are rendered egalitarian and folks are of an anrchist mind and seek that no institutionalized power exist i.e. the state (or on the way to becoming one).

But this is now out of the context of what I was talking about above and what is above is what I would like to address so please place this clarification back into the context above. -Vlad[/i]

[Kropotkitten]

I have to wonder why this is thread focuses more on the technicalities of self defense, whether its okay for men to beat up rapists etc, when it should be about why so many men in these spaces are extremely defensive about their own behavior in the first place? Instead of just beating up people who commit violent rape we should be creating places where creepy straight men don't take advantage of power dynamics in their emotional relationships with men, and especially why when women [like say, me] who challenge misogynist anarchist dudes on their behavior are absolutely vilified, simply for speaking openly about the bullshit we have to put up with and are sick of experiencing/witnessing...

Martial arts are not the solution to this problem: working on misogyny in the community is.

[|Y|]

Playing the role of the victim is really the problem, imho.

[Kropotkitten]

Playing the role of the victim is the problem, who are you kidding? The problem is that too many dudes are defensive and abusive when they are called on their sexist behavior.

[Kropotkitten]

Playing the role of the victim is the problem, who are you kidding? The problem is that too many dudes are defensive and abusive when they are called on their sexist behavior.

[Gonzo Joker]

Kropotkitten, could you please provide some specific examples of the misogyny you are referring to? There are some accusations of abuse and sexism I find horrific, and others which make me think the accuser is insane or at least carrying a huge chip on her shoulder.

My mind is wide open on this thread, and I would appreciate your input. Thanks.