Activist Scenes are No Safe Space for Women

[unlogged_dog]

whew! i thought i'd done with this place. but there's little that makes my blood boil more than some yahoo saying there's any such thing as "elders of the rainbow gathering".

first, there aint no "rainbow." years ago - decades in fact, there WAS a small grouping of hippies n'diggers n' whatnots that called themselves 'the rainbow family of living light.' though rfoll was instrumental in the early years of beatnik wannabe rendezvous, the gatherings evolved, attracting a wide variety of people with differing cultural mores and thus became immunized from any attempts at internal control by any one sect. so actually there IS a rainbow, but it's not a Rainbow. it's evolved from an identity to an idea. the us government in the guise of the the forest service doesn't see it that way though, and has been tagging people "Rainbows" and locking them up for it. which is in part why i replied...they've been reading the usenet group alt.gathering.rainbow since it's inception, and haven't hesitated using posts made there to prop up the prosecution's cases against people they wanna label "Rainbows." unchalleged, they'd have loved your interpretation. especially since you write with the authority of that is backed by a seventeen year knowledge of "this James in the Rain character."

incidently, his name doesn't feature large (at all) in any of my cultural resources online. VERY strange for such a notorious character to have absolutely no bad press. the one piece of press he does have is a typical mainstream article about The RAINBOW Gathering from the salt lake tribune, into which he was thrown in fer character - just a line or so. and who can blame them? "Rainbow Family"..."James in the Rain." but as for graphic tales of trial and travail, nada. even 'cult-victims in recovery' don't name that bogeyman.

second, there ain't no elders anymore than there are youngers or in-betweeners. anybody who thinks otherwise is an ageist, and in this particular case also laboring under the newage misapprehension there's a 'rainbow tribe' ala hopi prophecy and are thusly in danger of self-induced cult victimization.

third, there are no councils, though again i'm sure the government loves ya for saying so. what is a council? let's have a look-see.

Main Entry: 1coun·cil
Pronunciation: 'kaun(t)-s&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English counceil, from Old French concile, from Latin concilium, from com- + calare to call -- more at LOW
1 : an assembly or meeting for consultation, advice, or discussion
2 : a group elected or appointed as an advisory or legislative body
3 a : a usually administrative body b : an executive body whose members are equal in power and authority c : a governing body of delegates from local units of a federation
4 : deliberation in a council
5 a : a federation of or a central body uniting a group of organizations b : a local chapter of an organization c : CLUB, SOCIETY

2 & 3 are the most up-to-date definitions of a council. at least for the purposes of legal action. anybody who goes to those particular vigilante-fests you refer to as "councils" tend to be wannabe cops )complete with walkie-talkies permanently attached and borne with a swagger) ,who're elected or apointed or annointed by none other but them own damn selves. they have no authority. them so afflicted wish they did, but nobody but a fool'd give any to them.

interesting thing, that. "9 or more diferent councils with simmiler dialoge" and not a single mention of what the vigilante squad calls themselves and their little get-togethers. true believers call themselves "shanti-sena" -- themselves...as if they're special agents. again with the mistaken identity for an idea. to whit, "SHANTI-SENA!" is a well-worn lil community strategy for dealing with interpersonal crisis. it's like shouting "FIRE!" there's trouble -- everybody within earshot who's able comes running. calling out "shanti-sena!" isn't however a call to come running with handcuffs and torture implements, but moreso to facilitate defusing of situations largely and generally quite effectively by numbers alone. some saying goes "shanti-sena is everyone." or so i'm told.

no, the only thing any grouping of individuals acting solely on their own account could be doing is counselling. "counsels" i'll buy.

-that's michael laughing owl rain dog of the sun...for the record.

[Post_industrial]

Your right. This wasnt a a council in the official sense, but a group that came together for Shantisena. Most people dont know what a Shantisena is, so I used the term council.

You are also correct in talking about how rainbow isnt actualy a group, but an idea. From that perspective, I understand why you feel its important not to spread information that might counter this.

It was not the "leaders of rainbow" who organized these Shantisenas, becuase there are no leaders.


However, please believe that I am not making this story up. Perhaps 40 is an arbitrary number I created. I wasnt actualy keeping a count. It was however multiple women from one gathering alone which I heard from myself, with at least 1 rape victim comming to me personaly, and several other women who were either felt up by him or felt threatened by him who personaly asked me to peacefully escort him out of the gathering which I did (I didnt ever lay a hand on him, even though I felt like I was angry enough to).

I also know some older individuals by name who have been aware of this problem for many years, since they were going as young adults. Im not going to post their names, but if you question the validity of my claims, I can help point them out to you. You probibly know them.

At least 3 of the councils have been at national gathering in the US. The other councils were at regionals, and at least one world gathering. Again 9 was actualy an arbitrary number, but there were several that I heard of from diferent people when talking about what happened at other gatherings.

I dealt with this person in a peacefull mannor, becuase I was asked to, and because its rainbow and I know that is the custom.
If it happened in my house, he would not have been so lucky.

I am not making the story up, and I maintain my position that in many casses, the Shanisena method has not worked, and I believe more could be done to protect women, children, or even other men from rape and sexual abuse inside of rainbow.


And I would also like to add something that ties into this idea that we should sit the attackers down with their victims. I have witnessed this idea in practice, and when I spoke with 3 of the rape victims who were present at the same time, at least one of which was one of the two that I heard about from this paticular gathering, they refused to come forward and confront their attacker in Shantisena. I believe this may be partly becuase of the stigma attached to being a victim and fear of being judged, and also becuase they felt no confidence in the ability of the Shantisena to protect them once they went public with the attack. Instead we were left with a situation where several of us were being asked to speak for them yet they refused to come forward and speak for themselves.

This is why I dont think its best to have a policy where you force the victims to sit down with their attacker. The victims often dont feel comfortable with it, and when they are afraid to come forward this renders the tactic non-effective.

I believe they have good reason not trust the method of Shantisena to protect them, bassed on what we have seen as its result in the past, where the attacker justs moves his tent, rapes another women, leaves then does it again at the next gathering.

There needs to be a more effetive way of making sure these attackers dont keep comming back.

[Guest]

one in four are raped.

[mamacat]

I am highly suspicious of men who get all hard and excited about violently punishing rapists or sexual offenders.

I think it's a form of protesting too much, honestly.

Also a way of "proving" that you would never do such a thing yrself.

I think one of the most imnportant things that anarchist community can do is *not* ounish the rapis but support the survivor...and support means, she says what she needs and you (we) help her get it.

[Post_industrial]

I am highly suspicious of men who get all hard and excited about violently punishing rapists or sexual offenders.

I think it's a form of protesting too much, honestly.

Also a way of "proving" that you would never do such a thing yrself.

I think one of the most imnportant things that anarchist community can do is *not* ounish the rapis but support the survivor...and support means, she says what she needs and you (we) help her get it.

Not everyone feels the way you do momacat.

Not all of the rape victims to have come to me and personaly asked for help have desired protection of their rapist. Some of them have requested assistence in having them thrown out of the gathering, and while I may have been out of line saying I would do this regardless, I think you would be out of line not respecting their wishes if that is truly what they want when they ask for help.

[Din]

I think you would be out of line not respecting their wishes if that is truly what they want when they ask for help.

And if they wish to commit suicide because they have been raped, I supposed you would respect their wishes too? For that matter, what if they want a literal eye for an eye punishment by which they wish to see the rapist(s) being raped too? Would you be the man to step to the task then?

[Post_industrial]

I think you would be out of line not respecting their wishes if that is truly what they want when they ask for help.

And if they wish to commit suicide because they have been raped, I supposed you would respect their wishes too? For that matter, what if they want a literal eye for an eye punishment by which they wish to see the rapist(s) being raped too? Would you be the man to step to the task then?

Well, if she wanted to see the man raped, I would at least be willing to find the guy, restrain him or knock him out if I have to, tie him up and let her do whatever she wants to him. If thats her choice, I think maybe its reasonable for him to be humiliated in that way. There are certainly worse things she do, and though it could be argued that perhaps it will only increase the persons issues, I could also see it going the other way and helping him undertstand that hes hurting people.

For some reason, several women who know me who have been raped have come to me and asked me for help. They trusted me, and knew that I would do what they asked, nothing more or less. Perhaps there is a reason they would come to somone like me, and not somebody like you. Or maybe they have, and you can share you own experience of how they either did not feel like taking some kind of action, or how you refused to help when they did ask.


If someone was trying to commit suicide I would do everything I could to talk them out of it. Perhaps I may take away a knife, or a bottle of pills so the person could think about it for a while. However, suicide is realy a personal choice, and its not possible to eliminate somones ability to do so.


If I am ever again asked to help in this way, I will do so. You wouldnt even know whats going on, becuased it would already be finished befor you heard about it.

[Morpheus]

Eye for an eye and the world goes blind.

[Post_industrial]

Is that what you were thinking when you deleted Chuck0s posts?

And there you are defending a woman, Kristen, by doing the same thing back to her attacker.

I think you have the same hero complex.

[Din]

Well, if she wanted to see the man raped, I would at least be willing to find the guy, restrain him or knock him out if I have to, tie him up and let her do whatever she wants to him. If thats her choice, I think maybe its reasonable for him to be humiliated in that way. There are certainly worse things she do, and though it could be argued that perhaps it will only increase the persons issues, I could also see it going the other way and helping him undertstand that hes hurting people.

To be perfectly honest, I was actually expecting you to say no and subsequent distinguish your stance with my critical inquiry. This is rather surprising - you would actually assist in helping someone rape another human being? Wherein lies the difference here between rapists and victims? You yourself have already acknowledged that many rapists have once been victims of rape themselves and here you are being so willing to help a victim of rape turn into yet another rapist too?

The problem that you have, I feel, is that you have completely dehumanize the rapist into something completely beneath your level of compassion. I haven't.

For some reason, several women who know me who have been raped have come to me and asked me for help. They trusted me, and knew that I would do what they asked, nothing more or less. Perhaps there is a reason they would come to somone like me, and not somebody like you. Or maybe they have, and you can share you own experience of how they either did not feel like taking some kind of action, or how you refused to help when they did ask.

I see no need to bring my own personal experiences or lack of into the picture. I'm not trying to play a big hero, knight in shining armor to womenhood. Personally, I find it rather noteworthy that you would bring up this line of justification so frequently. Is it supposed to impress us?

Question: what if there are multiple victims of the same rapist and only half of them asked you to beat this rapist while the other half asked you not to? Which side would you follow and why?

[Post_industrial]

I would not rape someone, rapist or not.

If a victim felt the need to humiliate a rapist, I would not say that is totaly out of line. It would bring a sense of humility, but would not nessisarily seriously injure the person. Perhaps just tying up the attacker to a tree and allowing the victim to humiliate them would be more humane and appropriate then cuasing him serious injury for example. If that was the wishes of the vitcim.




Also, I didnt know I was trying to play the hero. I mentioned that I was asked on one occasion to escort someone out of the gathering without hurting them which I did, and not another occassion I was asked to kick somone out of the gathering by any means nessisary preferably with violence.

This is an important fact when Im being accused of it being a fantasy, when it actualy happened.

Im also telling you that perhaps I have more experience in this subject then you, and while perhaps I didnt do the right thing in each of the various situations, I have some insight on to how some of these things work.


I think that when I tell you that victims dont like to be sat down to confront their attacker in front of a group, that you should believe that I have seen this tried befor, and the victims always refused. Its a dumb idea, becuase it fails to acknowledge the feelings of the victim and how difficult it might be for them to talk about it at all, let alone in front of large groups and in front of their attacker. Ive seen it myself with my own two eyes, and I am yet to see that idea work.

Also, you are yet to respond to the fact that I was asked by the victims to help. It seems like you can comprehend that a victim might ask another person for help, especialy from another male, since the rapist happened to also be a male.

Im asking what experience you have that would lead you to believe that a victim would not ask for help kicking someone out of the gathering, wether by peacefull or forcefull means.

[Din]

I would not rape someone, rapist or not.

If a victim felt the need to humiliate a rapist, I would not say that is totaly out of line. It would bring a sense of humility, but would not nessisarily seriously injure the person. Perhaps just tying up the attacker to a tree and allowing the victim to humiliate them would be more humane and appropriate then cuasing him serious injury for example. If that was the wishes of the vitcim.

You would not rape someone, but according to your previous post on this thread, you are apparently willing to assist someone who has been raped to literally rape the rapist. As I put it before in the other thread, this effectively turns the raped into a rapist and the rapist into the raped. This is a lot different from a mere "need to humiliate" a rapist.

My question is if after you have tied the rapist to a tree and the formerly rape victim turns rapist on this person tied to the tree, wherein lies the difference here between rapists and victims?

Im also telling you that perhaps I have more experience in this subject then you, and while perhaps I didnt do the right thing in each of the various situations, I have some insight on to how some of these things work.

You have no idea as to the extent of my experience in the subject matter so please, stop trying to bring it up.

I think that when I tell you that victims dont like to be sat down to confront their attacker in front of a group, that you should believe that I have seen this tried befor, and the victims always refused. Its a dumb idea, becuase it fails to acknowledge the feelings of the victim and how difficult it might be for them to talk about it at all, let alone in front of large groups and in front of their attacker. Ive seen it myself with my own two eyes, and I am yet to see that idea work.

Yes, it probably would be difficult for anyone to have been rape to talk about it, let alone in front of a group of any size. But you seem to be suggesting here that it would be better for them to continue burying their feelings on the incident, suppressing their thoughts, and merely work out their frustration through violence. Sorry, but that sounds too much like the easy way out.

Also, you are yet to respond to the fact that I was asked by the victims to help. It seems like you can comprehend that a victim might ask another person for help, especialy from another male, since the rapist happened to also be a male.

I have responded. My question was what if there are multiple victims of the same rapist and only half of them asked you to beat this rapist while the other half asked you not to? Which side would you follow and why?

Im asking what experience you have that would lead you to believe that a victim would not ask for help kicking someone out of the gathering, wether by peacefull or forcefull means.

I have not denied that a victim could potentially ask for such a help. I don't see why one would be obligated to offer such a particular help of going violent asunder merely because a victim asked for it. That was precisely why I asked you whether you would actually help a victim if said victim asks for help in committing suicide or raping the rapist - two extreme examples which I was certain you would said response in the negative. But surprise, surprise, you do not seem to have any qualms to the idea of a rapist being raped in turn. In this light, it would not appear that your problem with rape is the actual act of rape itself.

[Post_industrial]

Those are reasonable criticisms Din.

I personaly dont like the method of raping a rapist. I dont think it makes sense, or is in anyway effective in solving the issue. Im just saying that if somone was victimized, I could understand why they would feel the need to humiliate the person just as they were. Its not that I agree with it, but I can understand how somone might want to do something like that to get even. I would say its a bad idea and would probibly discourage it.



I dont claim to have done the right thing, or at least to have done the best thing in the best way could have. I may even be guitly of harboring hatefull violent feelings twards people who rape close friends of mine. I dont think its totaly unreasonable to feel that way, or even say some of the things I have said, though there are probibly better ways of dealing with these issues then some of the things I have mentioned.


In the short term, there needs to be some safeguards to protect the victims first. I think that protection should be the first most immediate priority, and the healing and long term peace making should come second. I feel that non-violent methods are the luxury of not being in danger, so we should take the proper means to ensure that the danger is over befor sitting the two people down together. Im sure alot of victims are worried that if they sit in a group and tell their story of how they were raped, they could get beaten or killed by the rapist later, even if the rapist shows no signs in that moment of being violent.

That is my main criticism of sitting the victims and attacker down together in a group. It may endanger the life of the victim to the point where she might feel safer keeping it to herself completely rather then tell anyone for fear that however she tells will force her to talk about it in circle endangering her life.

To ensure a non-violent methods effectiveness there also needs to be a way to protect the victim from a second attack.

[Din]

Im sure alot of victims are worried that if they sit in a group and tell their story of how they were raped, they could get beaten or killed by the rapist later, even if the rapist shows no signs in that moment of being violent.

That is my main criticism of sitting the victims and attacker down together in a group. It may endanger the life of the victim to the point where she might feel safer keeping it to herself completely rather then tell anyone for fear that however she tells will force her to talk about it in circle endangering her life.

Yes, you're right. However, I think it is safe to say that if there are still dangers, that one would wish to work at removing those dangers. I do not wish to live in a society where people have to be afraid of revealing that they have been raped, whether out of the stigma associated with such a revelation or the possible physical dangers that might result - and I believe you would not wish to live in such a society either.

Victims should not be treated as victims. Work at empowering them, both through words and actions. Confronting the rapist is not merely for the rapist's benefit - or detriment, depending on how you look at it. Confronting the rapist is primarily for the benefit of the victims.

[Post_industrial]

I think even the vitims would agree with you that they dont want to live in a society where they have to be afriad of telling others they were victims.

However, its not currently the case, and I think there are some good points to your idea, but lets add some extra safe guards to it so they can feel physicaly safe, and not just socialy.