Activist Scenes are No Safe Space for Women

[Kropotkitten]

The idea that the majority of women who accuse men of abuse or even just sexism, are insane accusers is a myth. The easiest crime to get away with in our fucked up, over policed world, is rape, by far. The idea that all women who accuse men of rape are lying is like the idea that people living on welfare are all driving cadillacs and eating fancy cheese. It's designed to pathologize the victim, based on her sexual history, what she was wearing, her relationship to someone, consent given on earlier occasions, the fact that she 'didn't fight back enough'.

Rape or sexual assault would include: physically pressuring a woman into having sex with you, forcing her using your body, taking advantage of the fact that she is drunk or high and unable to consent [I've been at too many parties where a guy has been on top of a girl, someone has stopped to see if the girl was okay and it turned out she had no idea what was going on, and yes, I have sex with women, sometimes after drinking with them, and I know that you have to be very careful about this] etc.

Other fun factors women deal with include unwanted touching, being yelled at and shut down for disagreeing about anything from activist tactics to what to do later on tonight, threats etc.

One particularly interesting facet of this issue is the fact that when women bring up the problem, we are generally screamed at. Example, I lived in a house with 2 anarchists, a heterosexual couple. I was constantly listening to the guy scream at the girl, throw things, slam doors and threated to kill himself if she didnt do what he wanted, all while she was usually sobbing. I brought up the issue of gendered violence with him and he shouted at me and slammed all the doors in the house as well. She luckily got away and he continues to be seen as an upstanding anarchist by most of the men in the community, while many others feel uncomfortable and avoid him.

I had another conversation with an anarchist guy about an anarchist male friend of his who had been living with a female friend of mine. The guy raped my friend's classmate and constantly threatened her in front of the other anarchist male roommates. She moved out. His friend, when I stated what had happened, raised his voice until he was shouting, laughed at me about how it was impossible, after all, his friend was a vegan and wouldn't hurt anyone, and spent the whole time making up excuses.

[Kropotkitten]

The idea that the majority of women who accuse men of abuse or even just sexism, are insane accusers is a myth. The easiest crime to get away with in our fucked up, over policed world, is rape, by far. The idea that all women who accuse men of rape are lying is like the idea that people living on welfare are all driving cadillacs and eating fancy cheese. It's designed to pathologize the victim, based on her sexual history, what she was wearing, her relationship to someone, consent given on earlier occasions, the fact that she 'didn't fight back enough'.

Rape or sexual assault would include: physically pressuring a woman into having sex with you, forcing her using your body, taking advantage of the fact that she is drunk or high and unable to consent [I've been at too many parties where a guy has been on top of a girl, someone has stopped to see if the girl was okay and it turned out she had no idea what was going on, and yes, I have sex with women, sometimes after drinking with them, and I know that you have to be very careful about this] etc.

Other fun factors women deal with include unwanted touching, being yelled at and shut down for disagreeing about anything from activist tactics to what to do later on tonight, threats etc.

One particularly interesting facet of this issue is the fact that when women bring up the problem, we are generally screamed at. Example, I lived in a house with 2 anarchists, a heterosexual couple. I was constantly listening to the guy scream at the girl, throw things, slam doors and threated to kill himself if she didnt do what he wanted, all while she was usually sobbing. I brought up the issue of gendered violence with him and he shouted at me and slammed all the doors in the house as well. She luckily got away and he continues to be seen as an upstanding anarchist by most of the men in the community, while many others feel uncomfortable and avoid him.

I had another conversation with an anarchist guy about an anarchist male friend of his who had been living with a female friend of mine. The guy raped my friend's classmate and constantly threatened her in front of the other anarchist male roommates. She moved out. His friend, when I stated what had happened, raised his voice until he was shouting, laughed at me about how it was impossible, after all, his friend was a vegan and wouldn't hurt anyone, and spent the whole time making up excuses.

[Gonzo Joker]

One particularly interesting facet of this issue is the fact that when women bring up the problem, we are generally screamed at.

Yeah right. Maybe if you didn't come across as a shrill man-hater, you wouldn't provoke such a reaction....

[|Y|]

Um, Gonzo, if the guy was the way she says he was the guy would probably scream at anyone trying to be reasonable. You don't go off on your girlfriend and then, ironically, use threats of suicide to get your way.

And I say ironically, because that is the same sort of victim mentality so many in anarchist circles are filled with. Oh we're oppressed, oh we're fucked, oh we're incapable of taking care of our shit.

If I was a girl and was raped, I assure you that I wouldn't run around upset about it. I would take it as a lesson learned, and avoid the circumstances that led to it to begin with. With probably retribution were the act to be completely and utterly forced (being a druken idiot and getting fucked wouldn't constitute a significant response, but being violently beaten would definitely result in someones dick being chopped off).

The world is not perfect, and nothing will ever change until those who are abused stand the fuck up for themselves. And a lot of people in this thread realized that. How are you going to get rid of these abusive assholes without beating them down and making sure they no longer have opportunities to take advantage of? Magical comittees?

[Gonzo Joker]

Y, kitty wasn't even talking about a specific instance, she says that when she brings up this issue, she is generally screamed at.

The attitude she demonstrates shows this is generally a reasonable response to her. For example, I wrote,

Kropotkitten, could you please provide some specific examples of the misogyny you are referring to? There are some accusations of abuse and sexism I find horrific, and others which make me think the accuser is insane or at least carrying a huge chip on her shoulder.

My mind is wide open on this thread, and I would appreciate your input. Thanks.

And she responded:

The idea that the majority of women who accuse men of abuse or even just sexism, are insane accusers is a myth.

Where did I ever say that the majority of women who make accusations are insane? Instead of posting some sort of rational response to my inquiry as to her definitions, she immediately launched into an attack.

Most women enjoy having men lust after their bodies. Were this not the case, sales of makeup, sexy clothes, glamor mags, etc. would not be in the billions per year.

I am against rape and actual sexual abuse, but I will not apologize for being a man and for enjoying women's sexuality.

The world is already full of enough assholes who think they have the right to control others. I will be goddamned if I will let some misguided anarchist chick tell me I am not supposed to lustfully glance at some woman's jiggling breasts that she herself has put on display.

[Kropotkitten]

I'm sorry but what planet are you on?! I'm a shrill man-hater?
Actually, I take a lot of shit for being AGAINST women's only spaces and have even been accused of being 'male-identified' because so many of my best friends are men.

You asked for specific examples and I GAVE SOME. Then you told me that I deserved to be screamed at by some psycho [who also screamed at ALL the other female roomates but I guess they're psychos like me huh?] because I'm a fucking man-hater? Since when does being critical constitute my hating men? Since when is sexual violence not an issue of misogyny and the fact that so many punk ass boys are badass enough to say fuck the government but can't bring themselves to engage in a discussion about sexism [or analyze their own internal vestiges of it] without pulling a Rush Limbaugh and calling the out queer woman a manhater.Thanks manarchist, perhaps when you start your own federation you can be president and form a nice hierarchy for the rest of the world to fill out.

And if you're going to call me kitty, at least call me ' shrill manhating lesbian kitty' so we can be clear that its not affectionate. And yeah, all you've done is reinforce the idea that when a woman [especially, gasp, a gay one] points out sexism, there's no room for reasonable discussion, only room for us to be ridiculed, labeled and dismissed angrily.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go put on makeup and a skirt so that I can go outside and announce to the world that all I want is male sexual attention, heaven forbid the idea that I would conform to gender standards for any other reason...

[Gonzo Joker]

Actually, my first response in this thread was an attempt at rational discussion. It was your completely unreasonable response, and your totally dishonest characterization of what I said, that made me think you are prone to overreact and imagine offenses.

[Kropotkitten]

Funny how I overreact and imagine offenses when I didn't accuse you personally of anything, and when in the nice ass thread you accused me of making up something you said and someone else had the good graces to remind you of the context, which basically pointed out that you had ignored the very relevant comment you had made earlier.

[Gonzo Joker]

Actually, the statement you made about what I said was a bald faced lie. I never said that lesbians feel "threatened" by hetero women who enjoy sexual attention - I merely pointed out that a certain percentage of lesbians do, in fact, hate the fact that other women intentionally act and dress sexy in order to please men.

You have misstated what I have written in practically every response you have written to me, including this last one.

[skullcap]

as i see it, Gonzo, many women period (not just lesbians, or even a certain% of lesbians) find it offensive that women do stupid shit to (maybe) get attention from men. wearing make-up and dressing sexily is not what i am speaking of, what i mean is plastic surgery or implants, etc. i think there are a lot of women, including lesbians, who do the former, and not that many who do the latter, despite what the mass media may tell you.

your characterization that lesbians in particular find dressing sexily, or wearing make-up fearful (for what else is behind the hate you speak of?) is just laughable. and that is what i find offensive in your posts, your blanket statements of how a certain group feels or thinks, yes, i know only a certain %, nonetheless, you come across as sexist and homophobic.

[Kropotkitten]

Hmmm, looks like I'm not the only one responding to your points coming across as defensively sexist and homophobic, some of whom may also be men. For a man-hater, I'm certainly grateful that there are men who don't exhibit behavior similar to yours GJ.

[Gonzo Joker]

What really amuses me is that no matter how much women like Kropkitty and skullcap despise the fact that many women enjoy using their sexual charms to get attention from men, the numer of young women doing this seems to be increasing, not decreasing.

The fact remains, most women either enjoy having their bodies admired and lusted after, or are jealous of the women who are having their bodies admired and lusted after.

There is nothing sexist or homophobic about this observation - I love women, and think that all people have the right to pursue whatever sexuality is natural and fulfilling to them.

What I have a problem with is when so-called anarchists (who are really closet fascists) tell me that I must avert my eyes from some hot girl bouncing down the sidewalk in a low-cut stretch top.

Anything put on display in a public space is fair game for ogling. If you don't like it, that is just too bad - try spending your time working for less oppression, instead of oppressing others, and you may find that more anarchists enjoy having you around.

[Yuda]

What really amuses me is that no matter how much women like Kropkitty and skullcap despise the fact that many women enjoy using their sexual charms to get attention from men, the numer of young women doing this seems to be increasing, not decreasing.

The fact remains, most women either enjoy having their bodies admired and lusted after, or are jealous of the women who are having their bodies admired and lusted after.

They're some fairly out there claims - got any proof to back those up? Or are you just making them up?

[Gonzo Joker]

Just my own personal experience in watching and talking to women. Not only are these claims not "out there", I would say that these claims are painfully obvious.

[Yuda]

Just my own personal experience in watching and talking to women. Not only are these claims not "out there", I would say that these claims are painfully obvious.

We obviously hang out in very different crowds