Race to Our Credit

[Din]

I agree we should confront privilege.

I don't agree that we should start with skin and talk about 'skin privilege' (regardless of whether this particular 'white' person is actually privileged) and then move on to 'sex privilege' (regardless of whether this particular man...) although there are merits to discussing class privilege and general privilege and to discussiong how different 'racial' or other features build into class privilege and general privilege.

spelleins?

Who said we need to start with any particular privilege? I personally am more interested in gender privilege than skin privilege - even though I'm male and not white. Let's talk about all of them, let's confront all of them.

[Din]

But I dont nessisarily think that hating another individual becuase of certain traits that they have in common with those in power is warranted in all circumstances.

It's not warranted in any circumstances, yes.

For example, Ive been out to the reservations a few times, and I hear lots of references to the evils of the "Whiteman". I find it hard to judge them for this racist terminology (And I still call it racist even if its somewhat justified) becuase these people have been the victims of the largest genocide in recorded history and continue to live in poverty (In general).

I do not know about the particular indigenous groups you were with, but many indigenous people I know use the term white to refer to something more narrow and specific than what you and I might otherwise refer to. They know well enough than not all white individuals actually supports, condones or enforce the system through which they have been marginalized and oppressed. It's the system that they tend to refer to with their short-hand lingo.

I suppose the closest analogy would be feminists discussing and condemning "man" with the implicit and sometimes explicit understanding that they do not actually mean every single individual men but rather the system of patriachy.

And providing this explanation, I do not mean to express that I agree with their short-handed way of using the english language.

[Din]

I find that many white anarchists and many male anarchists tend to get defensive when non-whites or females point out their privilege. It's not that we are pointing out your privilege to deride you. There is no need to feel guilty about being privileged as if it was some sort of sin that have to be shorn of as an anarchist.

Perhaps I'm getting defensive, but it's not becuase it "bothers me" so much that I see it as "ineffective." It's like saying, "okay, the liberals are right, let's attack this issue, let's go lobby congress to pass another affirmative action law" and such.

Think about it this way. If our critique is similar to that of liberals, and liberals outnumber us by a vast majorty, and indeed, work with the capitalists and the state, what use is our critique? It is the same. We have achieved nothing.

It's like, okay, going to some sports game or something and cheering on a team we don't really care about but like the color of their uniforms because they look similar to our own teams.

This is why I am so criticial. Because I see no change. I see no difference. I see liberal when I see anarchists spouting liberal policies. I see politics, when I see anarchists going on about how women are less privledged than me and whites have more privledge than other races. And all I can do is go, "what?" Yes, it's a problem, the civil rights movement has been working on them, capitalism is slowly assimilating them (mind you, this is so very important to point out, capitalism cannot really be hurt by racial and sexual equality). It's getting "fixed." But the underlying problem is not getting fixed, and that is our reliance on the state.

How do anarchists fix it? They cannot through law, that is ridiculous. Bookchin says do it by starving the "degenerates," I guess we could do that. Or maybe we could do it by simply assuming the best and not associating with racists in the first place. Teach a culture of high independence and seek a society with far less interdependency than our capitalist one.

The real sad part of this discussion is that class privledges exist in far far more stark examples outside of the western states, and yet, we don't discuss them. It's almost taboo to criticize other countries for their treatment of their respective peoples.

Do me a favor, Y, if you would. Don't respond to my posts because I'm finding myself less and less capable of understanding your ramblings.

Hey, it's not you. It's me. I'm just not smart enough, apparently. Hell, I don't even know what sexism is, so don't expect me to know anything about class privilege or anarchism or what have you. Just leave me alone, mate.

Or just piss off.

[Post_industrial]

Im not full blood as I mentioned ealier, but I am a decendent of the Lokota and Toltec tribes. The Toltecs were conqoured by the Aztecs well befor the Spanish occupation of what is now called Latin America. Ive actualy spent more time around the Dineh and Hopi reservations helping in Black Mesa and ward vally with the strip minning and nuclear dump issues.

You are right that alot of native people speak about the "Whiteman" as a general statement against the US government, and still have freinds who are white.

Still, I dont think we should be working to encourage and justify this, but should be sympathetic to it, while working to help people see beyond race as an issue, and rather judge people by their character or lack theroff.

Alot of the Native people I have met realy like hippies and punks.

[|Y|]

Din,

Who said we need to start with any particular privilege? I personally am more interested in gender privilege than skin privilege - even though I'm male and not white. Let's talk about all of them, let's confront all of them.

I personally could give a shit about privilege, because it is a result of the state, and liberalism has shown to perpetuate those privileges while claiming to do the opposite, it has not really abolished them in any significant way.

Let's abolish the concept of privilege. Let's possibly say that liberals don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Okay the girlies get paid less than the boys. So the fuck goddamn what? Do we give a goddamn about capitalist workplaces? Do we? Abolish work. Make it so that the girlies and the boys repectively are free from it, and you will have solved any "issues" of "sexism."

Do me a favor, Y, if you would. Don't respond to my posts because I'm finding myself less and less capable of understanding your ramblings.

I can't help it. I can't make any promises. You should try better to understand me, I mean, the one paragraph you're saying is so difficult to comprehend is probably one of the least difficult to understand things I've written in awhile.

Hell, I don't even know what sexism is, so don't expect me to know anything about class privilege or anarchism or what have you.

Well, I don't think you do. Liberals are just as bad as conservatives. One side says women should be all submissive and cook and clean dishes and shit like that, the other side says that women should work and run businsses and do all that stuff. Guess what? Both sides are wrong. Until people can wrap their heads around this, and accept that people, that people do not need to tend a certain way (one which fits their own preconceptions about how people are "supposed to be," but is hardly some magical rule of the universe), we will have sexism. And racism. And all the -isms you can muster.

Just leave me alone, mate.

Kevin made the same request of me. He had a slightly worse attitude, though. Sorry, though, I calls it like I see it.

Or just piss off.

Hey, if I recall, you responded to me, insultingly no less, several times, before I even decided to respond to you. I mean, your one liners are just so charming, I didn't want to get into a fued with you and run you off like I did Kevin.

[Aaronmedia]

[quote="|Y|
Well, I don't think you do. Liberals are just as bad as conservatives. One side says women should be all submissive and cook and clean dishes and shit like that, the other side says that women should work and run businsses and do all that stuff.[/quote]

Hey, Y, this isn't exactly groundbreaking stuff. I think the problem is you tend to use these sort of arguments to mask your defensiveness whenever these topics come up...Such as...

"Okay the girlies get paid less than the boys. So the fuck goddamn what? Do we give a goddamn about capitalist workplaces? Do we? Abolish work. Make it so that the girlies and the boys repectively are free from it, and you will have solved any "issues" of "sexism."

Again, not exactly groundbreaking ideas. Patriarchy and sexism are often intertwined with capitalism, but can also exist exclusive of each other, which is what the context of this discussion is. If the "girlies" as you eloquently put it are getting paid less than boys, then this is a characteristic of work and capitalism. But there are other forms of authoritarianism (rape, for one) where these things exist.

I said this once before, but racism and sexism can't be talked about without putting it in class perspective. This is obviously a complex, intricate topic and I can't for the life of me figure out how you draw some of your conclusions about what's been posted here. How does acknowledging racism and sexism equal support for minority or gender capitalism and liberalism? Then it could be understood why you slander the posters as liberals.

But you are a credit to the white race...

[Insecuritykiller]

White people will reign victorious forever!!!!! Go the white race!!!!! Even as we die out from mix breeding it will only mean we leave the earth on a victorious note. Our brown children will look back in amazement at our beautiful whiteness, strange hair and eye colour and pretty faces. No doubt we will remain a popular subject until the end of time. When teaching the origins of society the people of europe will be menctioned alot. Who cruised around the earth on boats trying to make as much riches as possible, killing asians for fun where ever they could. Imagine a great white warrior standing proudly next to his throne of victory forever. Stareing into heaven with an eternal smirk on his face. An image that will never dissappear. Oh yes!

White people have always lived by the mandate dispite christianity that there is no morality and you can act as you please, causeing as much pain and misery as you want, if you could find a purpose for it. Infact black people and just about everyone else believes that aswell.

White people like all races have a racial pride. This quite obviously still exists today, from history classes to hollywood to fashion. It's a romanticism as well as a social group of privilege. So there you are. Now you know.

Suck shit black people. And all other races too, and our shitty brown children aswell. You can have the globally warmed earth. Please accept it as a gift.

Oh how i enjoy crushing the lesser races under my pretty white heel.

[hbomb]

This is always such a challenging discussion. As a white person, confronting the reality that I regularly benefit from a system I disapprove of is tough, especially considering there are other parts of my identity that bring along their own adversities. But the thing I think is most important is how we choose to handle that realization. And those other adversities that many of us have experienced can provide valuable insight.

We have lots of options...we can completly deny the existence of the disparity, take the "liberal" approach and become paralyzed with fear and/or guilt, or do our best to act in solidarity; accepting that we may not fully "know what someone's going through" or always understanding where they're "coming from". To me this solidarity means working to break down subtle and not so subtle power dynamics, avoiding unintentional patronizing behavior, and owning up when you screw up.

One thing that has been helpful to me in working to better understand these issues has been assigning more distinction between the "buzz words". For example, I find it helpful to make a distinction between "racism" (or other "isms" for that matter) and "prejudice". Racism is the power combo of prejudice + power. Without power discrepancy, all dislike on the basis of identity would be equal. But with the power component, the hater has greater means to act on it and they're backed up by big chunks of society. Looking at it this way helps me to better contextualize the supposed phenomenon of "reverse racism"...the prejudice is there without the power, and that prejudice is most often reactionary rather than instigative.

Another one that I find helpful is the difference between "suffering" and "oppression". We all suffer at one point or another, whether we aren't picked for a group we'd like to be a part of or we're forced to settle for some situation we find less than preferable. But what makes suffering the result of oppression is that it's systematically founded in social heirarchies that are working against you. So while it's very true that, for example, men suffer from sexism, I thinks it's important to make the distinction between their suffering and being oppressed. Both are bad, but they're bad in different ways.

I know this type of thing can seem like semantics, but I've found giving terms a bit of clarity helps to generate a more nuanced discussion and a few less miscommunications.

[Marja]

I understated the importance of intersectionality. Each new oppression does not add to the old ones, rather, it adds barriers to each other. A privileged individual faces a few scattered barriers. Someone oppressed for one thing faces a system of barriers, but still has some back doors, etc. Someone oppressed for two or more things faces interlocking systems of barriers.

[Yarrow]

some people get very touchy about what they perceive as racism, for example rights for whites. the concept of white people getting equal treatment (or rather minorities not getting preferential treatment) is not a race issue, it's a minorities issue. but because race is involved, a lot of people feel the need to protect those whom they see as being victimised.

some folk probably think i'm a ku fan now, so to clarify: any problem with immigration is a problem of policies here and abroad, generalisations are just that and culture (and circumstance) is as important as genetics in determining the attitudes of a given person or people.

[Insecuritykiller]

Well. It's clear that people against racism just want the white dominated world media to be removed. History perhaps revised aswell, what they teach in it atleast. Maybe get everyone to start acting like white people, or atleast not like racist sterotypes.

White people are calling for the change now. Seems that we are friends with non-white people. And it should be us, not you, that decides what happens to this society.