Hi, noob to forum, also noob to anarchism

[DreamMachine23]

Hi, My names kris, im quite a left wing hippie "peace and love" type and I live in the UK, and ive decided to turn to anarchism because of the corporates/govt and how much they are ruining our lives. Im kind of a nervous person so if I seem a bit socially akward my apologies Anyway, Could someone introduce me to anarchism, like the ideas behind it.

- Kris

[fight_war_not_wars]

Hi! First off, to get you started, here's a link to a really good FAQ- http://infoshop.org/faq/index.html

That FAQ will probably answer most of the "newbie" anarchist questions. It's very long if you were to read the entire thing, but it's separated into sections and sub-sections so you can read only the parts that you have questions about.

And as for being new to the forums, most everyone here is fairly friendly, so feel free to ask any questions you have about anarchism. As long as you don't say something stupid like "Sid Vicious invented anarchism", people will be respectful for the most part. If you get into a debate with someone, they might act a bit douche-y, but hey, it's an anarchist board. No one here is gonna be concerned with political correctness, right?

Don't worry about the awkwardness. I was a bit awkward at first, but I quickly adapted. You'll be fine. Glad to see more people getting interested in anarchism


And one last thing- just ignore Tom Palven (he's a complete idiot).

[Jawn Disease]

You should see this text.

[patrickhenry]

Im kind of a nervous person

You may want to take a xanax before talking with jack

[fight_war_not_wars]

You may want to take a xanax before talking with jack

Yeah, Jack can be a bit harsh. I got really pissed off at him during our first encounter. Now I've gotten more used to him. Interacting with Jack was probably the biggest adjustment starting flag. That or dealing with Palven.

[AndyMalroes]

Also Insecurity Killers a troll...A massive MASSIVE troll, he's been here since '03... A massive MASSIVE determined troll.

[Tom Palven]

Hi Kris,
Half of the dudes around here don't know that Das Kapital by Karl Marx was published in 1867, and refuse to recognize just how yesterday communism is. For an easily readable anarchist primer I would recommend For A New Liberty, 1973, by Murray Rothbard, which you can read on line. Nothing's perfect, but I think it's a great start.

"To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so." Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

[patrickhenry]

"To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so." Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

Hey Kris, Tom is a capitalist. Everything he quoted from Proudhon only applies to government not capitalist employers. Please don't read Rothbard . This was a man who support Pat Buchanan I recommend reading Rudolf Rocker Anarcho-Syndicalism.

[Tom Palven]

I'm not a capitlaist, Patrick- don't own any stock or bonds, and don't support the capitalist imperialism of the US Foreign Legion. But, I appreciate your not going all authoritarian on me and wanting me banned or shot.

[fight_war_not_wars]

Before I say anything else, sorry to get into a bit of a fight on your board Kris.

Hey Kris, Tom is a capitalist. Everything he quoted from Proudhon only applies to government not capitalist employers. Please don't read Rothbard . This was a man who support Pat Buchanan I recommend reading Rudolf Rocker Anarcho-Syndicalism.

Great recommendation. Rudolf Rocker's work is very good, I second Patrick's suggestion.

I'm not a capitlaist, Patrick- don't own any stock or bonds,

Jus 'cos you don't own stock doesn't mean you don't support capitalism.

[patrickhenry]

your not capitalistic tom? do you support wage slavery? do you support private property (i.e. land ownership)? do you support landlordship or rent? if you said yea to one of these your probably a capitalist.

[Tom Palven]

your not capitalistic tom? do you support wage slavery? do you support private property (i.e. land ownership)? do you support landlordship or rent? if you said yea to one of these your probably a capitalist.

I don't know if I "support" those things, but I'm not opposed to them. If a person wants to work for a share of the potato crop as wages, or for some other medium of exchange like money, what differece does it make to me? Private property is sometimes hard to justify, especially in Central America where large land holdings that were originally king's grants might make peasants out of the landless, but even Proudhon, who is widely quoted as saying "Property is theft" was apparently somewhat vague on private property. That translation is confusing, too, like the lousy translation of Stirner's book title The Ego and It's Own which doesn't make much sense.

I'll ask you a question I want to ask guest- Guest claims that true, honest to goodness communism has never been tried. Well, when we look at the 16 countries that were part of the USSR, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and we look at the various collectivist countries in Europe, Scandinavia, Africa, South America, and in Asia, including China, can't we say that just about every conceivable form of collectivism has been tried, including every form of anarcho-socialsim? And when we look at various other countries in North America, Europe, and the rest of the world, can't we say that almost every form of capitalism has been tried? All kinds of combinations have been tried, too, and one thing that they all have in common is that they are all authoritarian. That's why I think that anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-capitalism, and all the other anarchos except for anarcho-anarchism are all bullshit. Only an'-archism. no rule/rulers, with complete individual liberty/individual sovereignty, has not already been tried and found wanting.

[patrickhenry]

first I'm not communist. I'm a syndicalist collectivist with some mutualism thrown in. second-you seem like a smart man. please read anything about anrchist spain. anarcho-syndicalism worked for years. millions of anarchist tom. spain wasn't a theory it was fact. its documented history my friend. unfortunately the facsist and authoritarian communist party destroyed it. also read about nestor makhno and anarchism in the ukraine. also fact also worked. so, if your treuely opened minded please search the internet and read everything on anarchist spain and get back to me.

[Jawn Disease]

your not capitalistic tom? do you support wage slavery? do you support private property (i.e. land ownership)? do you support landlordship or rent? if you said yea to one of these your probably a capitalist.

I don't know if I "support" those things, but I'm not opposed to them. If a person wants to work for a share of the potato crop as wages, or for some other medium of exchange like money, what differece does it make to me?

1. No one 'wants' to work for potatoes, or money. People 'have' to work.
2. What if the guy who owns the potatoes you're working for (growing), doesn't want to give you enough potatoes? Or money?

Private property is sometimes hard to justify, especially in Central America where large land holdings that were originally king's grants might make peasants out of the landless, but even Proudhon, who is widely quoted as saying "Property is theft" was apparently somewhat vague on private property. That translation is confusing, too, like the lousy translation of Stirner's book title The Ego and It's Own which doesn't make much sense.

1. Private property is impossible to justify.
2. Land in Central America was not 'originally' the king's, it belonged to ethnic groups, tribes, nations and civilizations that existed prior to the European invasion and colonization.
3. 'La propriété c'est le vol.' It translates directly to 'Property is theft.' This is one of the simplest translations between French and English. It means that in order for one person to amass huge amounts of wealth it is necessary for him to oppress the people with the least amount of wealth. In order to keep that wealth, it is necessary that the needy go without. Pretty straight-forward.

I'll ask you a question I want to ask guest- Guest claims that true, honest to goodness communism has never been tried. Well, when we look at the 16 countries that were part of the USSR, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and we look at the various collectivist countries in Europe, Scandinavia, Africa, South America, and in Asia, including China, can't we say that just about every conceivable form of collectivism has been tried, including every form of anarcho-socialsim?

No. We can't say that. Let's define state-capitalism here. State-capitalism is where one capitalist has total monopoly over the economy, and that capitalist is the State. Example: the USSR, Cuba, Maoist China, North korea, Eastern bloc countries, etc.

Examples of communism existing are all over history but these instances were generally short-lived (destroyed) or in isolated areas such as the Pacific islands. So while communism has existed, it has not existed recently, and it has not existed on a large scale. Never mind fucking anarcho-socialism, which has been 'tried' a few times and fucking crushed by terrified fascists in every case.

[Tom Palven]

Patrick,
A communist coalition overthrew the king of Spain in 1931 in the Spanish Revolution and formed the Spanish Republic. In 1936 the Spanish Revolution broke out and in 1939 Gen. Franco took over and ruled Spain for many years. The coalition of people calling themsleves communists and anarchists didn't run Spain very long. You could say that capitalism has been "successful" in the US, especially if you don't want to mention that blacks couldn't attend white schools or colleges in the South until the 1960's.
As I've mentioned before, I give communists a lot of credit for throwing out the king of Spain and other royal caste systems in Russia and China, and throwing out the colonial powers throughout Africa and Asia, including supporting Nelson Mandela and the ANC in South Africa while the US sided with those in power in all cases, and still supports and enables kingdoms in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, and Morocco. Communism freed serfs, commoners, and untouchables from royalty and colonialism, but this is just an interim step in the quest for human freedom. Anarchism, freedom from all rulers, is the final stage of liberty, not quasi-anarchism in the form of anarcho-capitalism or anarcho-collectivism. Those terms don't even make any sense.