Needz more sharpness in arguments

[GuiMarquito]

I have some questions I don't see anybody posting (well maybe just because I can't be arsed to view all recent topics)

1. Do anarchists think and are okay with anarchism meaning a reduction in the quantity/quality of goods?

2. How is incentive created in a moneyless society?

3. What about people who work more productively than others?

4. I know america is practically a dictatorship. Everywhere I search about that a lot of videos and arcticles and Noam Chomsly talks appear. But what about the rest of the world? Not all governments are XIX-century-like. I for example, have 5 factions in my parliament, two of which are socialist (a communist party and a trotskist/lefts united one). And although you can notice some inclinations for left and right in the media they are mostly not biased, and include arcticles from multiple views. This may be because the system here, unlike in america, has been through some revolutionary changes in the last 200 years. But still, doesn't it mean Governments are at least possibly decent(although I must admit the parties in power haven't been exactly pleasant)?

5. What about tasks that nobody wants - i.e. security guard, shopkeeper, shoe factory worker, etc (basically anything people are forced to do and don't really find as a personal aspiration)?

i would prefer these questions to be answered by social anarchists although I accept arguments by individualists if they have solid bases.

[Guest]

1. Do anarchists think and are okay with anarchism meaning a reduction in the quantity/quality of goods?

No. Of course, my definition of quality might be different fro someone else's definition.

2. How is incentive created in a moneyless society?

Need/necessity/fulfillment of desire/many other ways

Andrei Kalishnikov never made more than his base salary, despite inventing a product that was manufactured billions of times. The idea that incentive comes only in the form of money/profit is a myth of capitalism.

3. What about people who work more productively than others?

Well, I have worked in many offices when I was younger, so the only answer I can give is that in the current situation, the most truly productive are kept down, while the time-wasters rise to the top. Almost anything would be an improvement.

4. I know america is practically a dictatorship. Everywhere I search about that a lot of videos and arcticles and Noam Chomsly talks appear. But what about the rest of the world? Not all governments are XIX-century-like. I for example, have 5 factions in my parliament, two of which are socialist (a communist party and a trotskist/lefts united one). And although you can notice some inclinations for left and right in the media they are mostly not biased, and include arcticles from multiple views. This may be because the system here, unlike in america, has been through some revolutionary changes in the last 200 years. But still, doesn't it mean Governments are at least possibly decent(although I must admit the parties in power haven't been exactly pleasant)?

I don't know what country you are in, but I will use Germany as an example. It is a "parlimentary democracy" as well. You will recall that both the German people and the German government were opposed to the attack on Iraq in 2003. The Chancellor even formally declared that they would not be aiding the invasion in any way. Years later, it was revealed that the German intelligence services gave full help and cooperation to the USA.

So, Germany can call itself a "democracy" or whatever. And the German Left parties can speak in the parliment and denounce war. And the German Green party can be in favor of war (as in Yugoslavia). And the SPD and CDU can say what they want. But none of them is in control of policy when it really matters.

"left" and "right" are a scam and a sham. both have been invented by the people who have an ideology called "power."

5. What about tasks that nobody wants - i.e. security guard, shopkeeper, shoe factory worker, etc (basically anything people are forced to do and don't really find as a personal aspiration)?

Robots. (ok, maybe not for security guard)

Yes, you are laughing right now, but honestly, it could be done if technology was geared for it (instead of profit and control).

[tedster]

1. Do anarchists think and are okay with anarchism meaning a reduction in the quantity/quality of goods?

No. Of course, my definition of quality might be different fro someone else's definition.

Some qualities will go down, but not all. The loss in quality is mostly going to be from stuff that are made to make items sell better, and mostly likely won't have any real importance. Quality could actually increase because cost in terms of current financial systems are likely to be taken out as a factory.

Quantity will change depending on what it is that you are thinking of. In the current world, there is enough food to feed most people, and the people who are starving is mostly an issue of accessibility.

Many stuff that gets wasted may actually end up getting used instead.

2. How is incentive created in a moneyless society?

Need/necessity/fulfillment of desire/many other ways

Andrei Kalishnikov never made more than his base salary, despite inventing a product that was manufactured billions of times. The idea that incentive comes only in the form of money/profit is a myth of capitalism.

What "Guest" said plus:

The current system also makes us stop doing things, such as not doing something that could bring safety and comfort to those concerned. For example. An auto manufacture may decided not to bother to change something even though it is causing lives. Global warming is getting neglected because of cost in profits.

Much of the incentives are also often discussed have more to do with sales and quotas, which give distractions to quality and whether we really need that $2,000 fur sink.

Further more, there is a personal incentive to do things because it pleases them, and because it is a way to stay accepted in a community.

3. What about people who work more productively than others?

Well, I have worked in many offices when I was younger, so the only answer I can give is that in the current situation, the most truly productive are kept down, while the time-wasters rise to the top. Almost anything would be an improvement.

Nothing to add there. Except I also would like to add that my last sentence to my answer in Question two applys here also. And a question begs, producing what?

4. I know america is practically a dictatorship. Everywhere I search about that a lot of videos and arcticles and Noam Chomsly talks appear. But what about the rest of the world? Not all governments are XIX-century-like. I for example, have 5 factions in my parliament, two of which are socialist (a communist party and a trotskist/lefts united one). And although you can notice some inclinations for left and right in the media they are mostly not biased, and include arcticles from multiple views. This may be because the system here, unlike in america, has been through some revolutionary changes in the last 200 years. But still, doesn't it mean Governments are at least possibly decent(although I must admit the parties in power haven't been exactly pleasant)?

I don't know what country you are in, but I will use Germany as an example. It is a "parlimentary democracy" as well. You will recall that both the German people and the German government were opposed to the attack on Iraq in 2003. The Chancellor even formally declared that they would not be aiding the invasion in any way. Years later, it was revealed that the German intelligence services gave full help and cooperation to the USA.

So, Germany can call itself a "democracy" or whatever. And the German Left parties can speak in the parliment and denounce war. And the German Green party can be in favor of war (as in Yugoslavia). And the SPD and CDU can say what they want. But none of them is in control of policy when it really matters.

"left" and "right" are a scam and a sham. both have been invented by the people who have an ideology called "power."

Pretty what "Guest" said about Germany is also true about other countries.

Politicians will promise somethings and will even fulfill them, but often the fine print is easily over looked. There is also a lot of doublespeak so they will say one thing when it really will have the opposite effect, or it will just pacify the masses.

There is much below the surface that doesn't become obvious to people. In the US, congress has voted on time tables to stop the war but it also has expenditures that makes the war possible.

5. What about tasks that nobody wants - i.e. security guard, shopkeeper, shoe factory worker, etc (basically anything people are forced to do and don't really find as a personal aspiration)?

Robots. (ok, maybe not for security guard)

Yes, you are laughing right now, but honestly, it could be done if technology was geared for it (instead of profit and control).

I don't think I will talk about any technology that isn't in place as we don't know what the outcome of that will be.

People are also doing shit that doesn't need to get done. If it's important, people will be security guards, shopkeepers, Shoe makers and cobblers will be around as they always have been. And the technology is already here to make large amounts.

Keep in mind the reason why people often don't want to work in the occupations you described, is because they pay like shit. One thing that you haven't mentioned on your list is farm work. And that can easily be a communal effort.

Again people will have motives which once again goes to my last sentence on item 2.

In a pinch, not all systems come out truly pure, as we may still may make an exception yet to be determined.

I personally volunteer at a food not bombs once a week, which includes getting food assist in cooking and eventually serving it. I also occasionally work at an all volunteer bookstore. I have also watched many people do stuff because the need is there and they do actually like to do things because it benefits the community.

[|Y|]

GuiMarquito,

1. Do anarchists think and are okay with anarchism meaning a reduction in the quantity/quality of goods?

See: Spain. Anarchism necessitates a social and economic equality for all.

2. How is incentive created in a moneyless society?

Depends on what you mean by incentive. I have incentive to pay my light bill because if I don't my lights will be turned off. I have incentive to pay my rent because if I don't the police will come knocking on my door and if I am stupid enough to answer, will grab me and take me away.

If you think not having a choice to do something is the same thing as incentive, fair enough, but I think such incentives are fascist bullshit. My incentives are internal, they are things that I like doing, if it means simply eating a big meal, watching lots of TV, taking a big shit and wiping my ass, I still have incentive to do those things.

3. What about people who work more productively than others?

What about them? If some people sit on their ass all day doing nothing and others spend all day being productive, there's absolutely nothing within anarchism to preclude either behavior.

4. I know america is practically a dictatorship. Everywhere I search about that a lot of videos and arcticles and Noam Chomsly talks appear. But what about the rest of the world? Not all governments are XIX-century-like.

All western countries are dictatorial to the rest of their subordinate developing countries. This is universial truth. If you live in a subordinate developing country, you may not believe that you are under a dictatorship, but for those countries to be subordinates to the west, the people are necessarily made to behave a certain way. The more subordinate you are, the more the overarching nation state is going to have to come down on its citizens. China is a prime example. Because it is utterly subordinate to the USA, its peoples are required to live lives not much better than factory farmed animals. You may invoke examples like Venezuela, which is supposedly run by a nice progressive, but even then you see that Venezuela is a heavy exporter of oil to the USA, and that the social policies in that country are nothing less than outright dictatorship.

So maybe you live in a magical country that is not subordinate to the west, and maybe you live in a magical country that has aboslutely no developing world subordinates. But I find it unlikely.

Just because you yourself do not feel pressured by your government does not mean that your government is not pressuring others in some way. Portugal in particular was one of the worlds greatest colonialists (second only to Britian), whose colonies lasted until 1999, and Portugese law still exists in several countries to this day. The fact that Portugal is part of the EU doesn't help the case that it's "not a dictatorship," or that it's even an "acceptable level of dictatorship."

5. What about tasks that nobody wants - i.e. security guard, shopkeeper, shoe factory worker, etc (basically anything people are forced to do and don't really find as a personal aspiration)?

Do you want to take out the garbage? No? So you'd rather pay someone to do it, is that it? Someone who, because of the system we have in place, is "incentivized" to take out your garbage for you? I'm an individualist, I take out my own fucking garbage, and I do tasks that I may not like myself.

However, since you appear to not like doing certain tasks and possibly expect others to do those tasks for you, maybe we can redesign society so that those tasks are either automated or minimized in some other manner. The reasons shitty jobs exist today is because of that dynamic that requires that the lowest classes do those jobs, if the lowest class didn't, you could expect the elites to figure out solutions so that they wouldn't have to do them themselves (of course, then the lower class would no longer be needed and would be summarily executed, etc).

BTW, I am an social anarchist, I am not a "tuckarian" or "carson" "individualist." I am closer to being an anarcho-communist than an "individualist," even if the last two paragraphs do not appear to imply that.

[Guest]

Make up your mind, mate! That's the kind of swanky bits I hear from capitalists and other dodgy geezers.

I'm an individualist, I take out my own fucking garbage

BTW, I am an social anarchist, I am not a "tuckarian" or "carson" "individualist." I am closer to being an anarcho-communist than an "individualist,"

[kuro shiro]

i'm okay with lower quality goods and less goods because i live a simple life, as far as possessions go. perhaps many people are a product of their society and this technological age and they know no different. i would prefer a simpler way of living, and honestly i think it's the only way that anarchy can work. some might see this as regression, but i see it as evolution. i believe in personal responsibility, but i do not believe that it means looking out for only yourself. it means sometimes you have to give the guy next to you something to eat, and maybe next time he'll get you back.

similarly, as i've often observed in co-op or communal living situations, people united by common ideas will work together to achieve that goal. if i have to clean the fucking bathroom once in a while for everyone else, so be it.

also, i see security guards as an obsolete profession in an anarchist society. and i believe that people have the power to create their own incentive, as they should. certainly i have to wonder where technology fits into ideologies such as the ones i have mentioned, but what is truly necessary here?

i feel fulfilled constantly, and the life i lead is very simple. the people i surround myself with are very invested in a DIY attitude- we make out own zines, record our own music, raise money for causes. i buy used books, used bikes, i make things constantly. i maintain personal aspirations while "slaving the 9-5" like everyone else. i think one day every one will have similar ideals, when we quit being escapists and start realizing what matters.

what's the big deal with compensation? i'm glad to acknowledge the fruits of my labor.