I believe that God EXISTS, but I don't really care!

[Mind_Cemetary]

Okay, I know a lot of folks here atheists, so I thought I'd explain how my own personal views differ from atheism in order to hopefully generate some interesting discussion.

I usually describe myself as a deist with agnostic tendancies, meaning that I believe that evidence in nature suggests that some conscious being PROBABLY created the universe but am open to the POSSIBILITY that this is not true. However, whether or not God EXISTS is not really all that important to me. I do not believe that God is "omnipotent" and reject all assertions which suggest that omnipotence in a necessary characteristic of God, assuming It exists. I also do not believe that there is such thing as "Heaven" or "Hell" but, instead, a single realm into which all disembodied consciences pass. This, along with my rejection of an omnipotent God means that I do not believe that God is capable of "rewarding" or "punishing" people for their behaviour during temporal life. I am also open to the possibility that there is no afterlife but, 1) would like to think that there is and, 2) think that evidence suggests it. I say this because I believe that consciousness is basically a collection of electrical impulses in the brain and, from what I have heard, electricity cannot be destroyed but only transferred from one location to another.

However, for me, the question of whether or not there is a God or an afterlife is of less importance than whether or not God, assuming it exists, is virtuous in nature. In my opinion, any God that is able to dictate a person's fate by deciding if they go to "Heaven" or to "Hell" is an unjust God and deserves to be destroyed. However, a just God would be a God who basically stays out of human affairs altogether (unless voluntarily approached by someone seeking not a decree but advice -- assuming that advice is something that God is CAPABLE of giving). For the most part, I simply believe that the purpose that God serves in the universe simply has nothing to do with how humans live their lives. It is for this reason that I do not CARE if God exists and, instead, take more comfort in how I relate to other human beings. I believe that God merely created the initial principals upon which physical existence is based but exerts no further control over either humans OR nature.

I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on all of this.

[1swank]

Hey Mind-Cemetary,

Interesting thoughts. Many of the anarchists I know aren't atheists, but we don't talk about it much because it seems as if there is a wide range of thought on the subject. My thoughts differ from yours but there is no way to say either of us is wrong (or right), and that can make discussion difficult.

Let me ask you, Is god outside of you?

It seems so from what you said but I'd like to make sure.

[Mind_Cemetary]

Let me ask you, Is god outside of you?

It seems so from what you said but I'd like to make sure.

Yes, in my opinion, God, if It exists, is a distinct conscious entity with it's own independent existence. It seems to me that something created the physical universe, and that Something was not human beings.

[1swank]

If people ask me if I believe in god I usually say yes but that is because I don't have a better word for what I really mean.

I don't, like you, believe in a supernatural God. I think everything is sacred, or god. And by that I don't mean that I can change the weather or anything like that, but that the sacredness that is the world is me too.

Again I go back to the tao, if you are talking about it you aren't really talking about it.

[Mind_Cemetary]

Ok, this next post is going to seem like it came way out of left field, so just a word of warning. I was about to reply to your last post as soon as I read but, as I started typing, my answer started making less and less sense to me. When you said that you don't believe in a "supernatural God", I was going to respond by saying that, if God exists, there would be a scientific principle in place that would allow for it. However, then I remembered that I also believe that God CREATED science, so how can I believe that science is what permits It to exist? There then a whole thought process that took place in my mind that is too complicated to explain right now, but it involved things like time travel and how it would relate to a different set of laws governing God's universe than the ones that govern our own. Basically, I am not sure anymore if God truly does exist as an independent being and, instead, am starting to believe that there is an unconscious system of order inherent in the fabric of existence. Religion and certain branches of metaphysics alike have taught people to believe that God is what makes order in the universe possible (i.e., without God, there is chaos). But what if, in the absense of God, the pre-existing condition is not chaos at all, but order?

I hope this doesn't seem too much like it came out of nowhere, but it is something that hit me all of a sudden. Well, all of a sudden in ONE sense, although I have entertained the possibility of an inherent system of order rather than God in the past but, until now, thought that the latter explanation made more sense. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts, assuming I don't have you too confused.

[1swank]

Well I no doubt am confused but not because of your post, thinking about this stuff is usually a mind bender for me.

What I meant by 'supernatural' is "removed from Nature", ie. not of this world. So I don't think either way that something outside of Nature would be bound by the rules of Nature. or science.

I don't know if that goes to your point or not. I think I am coming from a very different place in that I don't see the divine as separate from me (or you or the cat or trees or dust or etc, etc, ad infinitum).

As I said before I don't think there is a right or wrong to these questions, but in my way of looking at it, the questionof who/what created the universe is meaningless. It seems to me that we all, as the divine, just decided to universe.

I think your point on the inherent order in the world is correct. it is chaos if one comes at it from the idea of control, but if one just looks at the world it has pattern and beauty and order, and whether that comes from god or is just there it is difficult to say.

[(bongo)]

it seems to me that organized religion does its share of creating unbelievers and atheists. like: many people would like to believe in deity, a Source of everything, and then religion gets in their face and says 'believe THIS way' and people for literally, ages have wanted to distance themselves from that, until they say : if people who assert the existance of a God behave in this way then I will become an atheist, because i don't believe in or support THAT god.


i believe in God but i know that organized religion is even now turning people into murderous Zealots: i know what that God is about, i acknowledge it but i don't worship it.

i definitely believe in God and i believe that that God supports free choice and free will --
to the point that its lack of influence in human affairs might just be a cleve illusion, like i give that God credit for creating the Sun among other things, and its hard to say that the Sun has NO INFLUENCE in human affairs.

but what makes any people into atheists is political, military religion as we're seeing coming out of Washington and basically all other State capitals: and the deception and manipulation and bullyng that comes from the religious heads of state is in a way like an antiGod to me, like something that is determined to convince people that their is no god.

how bout that?

[draelith]

Um, Mind_Cemetary, you said in your original post that you "think that evidence suggests it [an afterlife]. I say this because I believe that consciousness is basically a collection of electrical impulses in the brain and, from what I have heard, electricity cannot be destroyed but only transferred from one location to another."

I think that your above reason for believing in an afterlife is very weak, and shows a few misunderstandings about electricity.

When you are alive, the neurons do communicate through electric signals. Howver, upon death, all electrical signals cease (this is the "braindead" state).

Electricity is not something which, as you say, can only be transfered, but not destroyed. Electricity is simply the transfer of electrons. Upon death, the chemical reactions within the brain which induce these currents of electrons ceases. The electrons cease to move and remain in your brain.
When a corpse is buried, all of those electrons which made the electrical pulses inside the brain remain with the body under the ground. They are no different to any other electrons in any random atom (take the atoms in a rock for example).

[Mind_Cemetary]

draelith:

Yeah, what you said may very well be true. It's just nice to think that there might be an afterlife and I, for one, don't see it as being totally outside the realm of possibilities. In any case, I think I'll reserve absolute judgement until I actually bite the dust.

[Anarchist705]

What about the idea that God is the personafication of what we believe to be good(God being pure goodness)? It doesn't really deal with the creation question, but would seem to explain a lot of other things.

[jacobhaller]

I used to use the personification argument but I think it has a few gaping holes. A personification if goodness is certainly all good; but the questions are (1) is this worthy of some kind of worship and (2) is this an actual being with an actual will?

I have given up trying to define worship: certainly I think that thing that organized religions do is unworthy, it demeans both worshipper and worshipped; at the same time I think those things which go beyond ourselves and strive to add meaning to this world are worthy.

I won't touch the will question today, though I would answer firmly in the affirmative.

[Guest]

why do people seem to have this NEED for an entity or explanation for life and death? i don't believe in a god or a God or gods or goddesses, and i have no need for beliefs to give my life or death or afterlife (whatever is there) some framework of meaning. why have fairy tales? what purpose do they serve. it seems to believe in something that far-fetched must serve some purpose, why else have it? (not that i think everything has to have a purpose, but something this huge surely must serve something)

i would be interested in knowing hw anarchists who do believe in some godheadthing come to understand this faith of theirs and how it flavors their life and view of the world now and in the one they wish to create.

[|Y|]

because people are different

[Morpheus]

why have fairy tales? what purpose do they serve.

Low-tech thought control.

[1swank]

why have fairy tales? what purpose do they serve.

Low-tech thought control.

what about the fairy tale that says that "I don't believe in fairy tales" ? That is the worst of all.