How Anarchism Exploits Workers

[AbolishAnarchism]

By removing the “boss,” and replacing him with every single other worker in the business, ‘anarchism’ would create exploitation and tyranny that would be unprecedented.

Your very life would be subject to some group of rank amateurs, no matter how clueless they are on how to run a business. The bigger the business, the more they would bicker and fight all day. Workers would be difficult for the sake of being difficult. They would make terrible decisions you would be forced to follow, even if you disagreed strongly with them. There would have to be eventual submission or nothing would get done. Tears of anger and resentment would stream from your eyes as you watch the life savings you poured into the “cooperative” travel straight down the shitter at lightning speed.

Workers will not be able to be hired or fired. Unlike an experienced entrepreneur who knows what he is doing, they will constantly make bad decisions, and bad decisions WITH YOUR MONEY, at that. Unlike under a capitalist, you will be piss-broke when the bankruptcy occurs. You will have absolutely no other choice. There will be no other option whatsoever. Such is the idiocy of anarchism.

These are the choices anarchism gives: Either entrust your life and money to group of inexperienced dummies who will make sure it goes to waste, or starve in the streets.

Everybody would have to answer to unreliable class clowns and apathetic no-shows. Capitalism beautifully weeds out the useless and incompetent. Anarchism puts a collar around your neck and hands them the leash.

There is no system more exploitive or cruel than anarchism. I will tell you right now that I would refuse to participate in this idiocy. You will have to force me at gunpoint when the “big day” comes--force me to be “free.” I will not do anything against my own will.

But the anarchists object. “You will keep all of your labor’s value!” Of course, without a successful business, you will not be getting one red cent, so it will be irrelevant. Without any alternative to having untold amounts of workers and governments..oops.. “committees” tell you what to do and how to live, you would be enslaved.

Isn’t it about time we abolished the brutal system of exploitation called anarchism?

[MilitancyFetish]

Do you really think that I give a flying fuck about you or your opinions? Seriously. Do you? I don't care about anything that you think, have to say, or otherwise value. Not only that, but I don't care THAT you don't care about me or MY beliefs either. So where, in your opinion, does that leave us?

[tedster]

I stopped reading his stuff after two words. He reminds me of all the other liberal democrates who just like to react to everything.

[AbolishAnarchism]

Do you really think that I give a flying fuck about you or your opinions? Seriously. Do you? I don't care about anything that you think, have to say, or otherwise value. Not only that, but I don't care THAT you don't care about me or MY beliefs either. So where, in your opinion, does that leave us?

Cognitive dissonance is normal. It is normal to fear criticism when your philosophy has been masterfully discredited.

[|Y|]

You neglect to realize that anarchist factories can (and I believe would trend toward) being run without actually there existing this "force" to run them.

Imagine for a moment needing shoes. Then imagine walking down to the local "Free Clothing" factory. You go in, say "Hi, how are you? I need a nice pair of shoes."

Some person then responds, happily, "Do you know how to operate Class C clothing Machinery made by the Free Tech group?" If you respond "no" then you go through a relatively harmless training procedure whereby you learn how to actually use the machine, receiving a small card so that others might know that the person training you signed off on your ability to use the machinery. This, of course, isn't necessary. Just like "licensing" isn't necessary to skydive. However, if you don't hold a license (one created through a web of trust through, in the example of a skydiving license, other skydivers and instructors), you may not have people trusting your ability to use said publicly available machinery. Plus, you'd have incentive to be "trained" at working something as such.

If you already know how to operate the machinery then you're good to go.

Now, cost would be somewhere along the lines of bringing in your old waste garbage, or perhaps it would be free the first few times, up until a point where you could recycle your old clothing.

Pretty neat, isn't it? Now tell me how a "worker" in one of these "factories" is being exploited or forced into tyrranny.

[Anarchism's Undertaker]

Under Anarchism the only industry would be snaring rodents with braided reeds by a polluted stream or banging rocks together. So the issue of management may not arise..... except for the gangs of maraudering thugs who would arrive occassionally to steal your rodent dinner or flint axes.

[AbolishAnarchism]

You neglect to realize that anarchist factories can (and I believe would trend toward) being run without actually there existing this "force" to run them.

Imagine for a moment needing shoes. Then imagine walking down to the local "Free Clothing" factory. You go in, say "Hi, how are you? I need a nice pair of shoes."

Some person then responds, happily, "Do you know how to operate Class C clothing Machinery made by the Free Tech group?" If you respond "no" then you go through a relatively harmless training procedure whereby you learn how to actually use the machine, receiving a small card so that others might know that the person training you signed off on your ability to use the machinery. This, of course, isn't necessary. Just like "licensing" isn't necessary to skydive. However, if you don't hold a license (one created through a web of trust through, in the example of a skydiving license, other skydivers and instructors), you may not have people trusting your ability to use said publicly available machinery. Plus, you'd have incentive to be "trained" at working something as such.

If you already know how to operate the machinery then you're good to go.

Now, cost would be somewhere along the lines of bringing in your old waste garbage, or perhaps it would be free the first few times, up until a point where you could recycle your old clothing.

Pretty neat, isn't it? Now tell me how a "worker" in one of these "factories" is being exploited or forced into tyrranny.

Absolute silliest thing I have ever heard. Only a leftist could possibly believe this silliness.

These ideas do not strike you as kind of...dumb?

Being an anarchist does not strike as you as a total waste of time? You do realize there will never be "anarchism" (a silly utopian fantasy), right?

Would it not make more sense to support free-market conservatism? You do realize you can form communes and worker cooperatives in such a system, correct? People already do. I can provide you with links if you wish.

Ah, I forgot, you and your ilk are not satisfied with the opportunity to practice your silly, impractical beliefs. You wish to impose them on others. Such is the point of anarchism.

Anarchism--a philosophic fraud on all levels

[Guest]

how is it that you spend parts of your precious life typing in words to people who believe in a completely discredited, wacko, marginalized ideology? there's no good record of conversion, so you must enjoy wasting your time and antagonzing people. perhaps you should join the military?

[MilitancyFetish]

Do you really think that I give a flying fuck about you or your opinions? Seriously. Do you? I don't care about anything that you think, have to say, or otherwise value. Not only that, but I don't care THAT you don't care about me or MY beliefs either. So where, in your opinion, does that leave us?

Cognitive dissonance is normal. It is normal to fear criticism when your philosophy has been masterfully discredited.

Actually I just genuinely don't care.

[Yuda]

Absolute silliest thing I have ever heard. Only a leftist could possibly believe this silliness.

These ideas do not strike you as kind of...dumb?

Being an anarchist does not strike as you as a total waste of time? You do realize there will never be "anarchism" (a silly utopian fantasy), right?

Would it not make more sense to support free-market conservatism? You do realize you can form communes and worker cooperatives in such a system, correct? People already do. I can provide you with links if you wish.

Ah, I forgot, you and your ilk are not satisfied with the opportunity to practice your silly, impractical beliefs. You wish to impose them on others. Such is the point of anarchism.

Anarchism--a philosophic fraud on all levels

[|Y|]

AbolishAnarchism,

Absolute silliest thing I have ever heard. Only a leftist could possibly believe this silliness.

Why? What reason do you find it silly? Is it impractical?

These ideas do not strike you as kind of...dumb?

Nope, they sound quite smart, to me. I mean, after all, wouldn't a poor person happily work in such a factory as opposed to another job which requires that they work tens of hours a day for weeks before they can afford to purchase what they could have otherwise produced?

Being an anarchist does not strike as you as a total waste of time? You do realize there will never be "anarchism" (a silly utopian fantasy), right?

Had P2P failed, had people cared about copyright and capitalist property online, had not copyleft become so pervasive, then, perhaps I would have written anarchism off as a fantasy. However, we have these clear and obvious examples of people not caring about capitalist property, and I find it hard to justify how they would feel differently if physical resources could be shared similarily.

Why would anyone rationally want to continue working their asses off for capitalists if they didn't have to? It makes no logical sense.

Would it not make more sense to support free-market conservatism? You do realize you can form communes and worker cooperatives in such a system, correct? People already do. I can provide you with links if you wish.

The problem with these systems is that they rely on external capitalist support to exist. This is why you can't just freely go into a factory and come out with a bunch of clothes you made yourself utilizing the machinery. The Argentine coops were a great example of workers taking over the workplace, but they had within their coops no mechanism for external forces to come inside and do their own job. They're designed with capitalism in mind, not with freedom in mind.

You do realize that you could continue practicing your little pathetic capitalism in a pervasively anarchist world, right?

Ah, I forgot, you and your ilk are not satisfied with the opportunity to practice your silly, impractical beliefs. You wish to impose them on others. Such is the point of anarchism.

Pfft, how would we be imposing our beliefs? If I make a factory using my own capital, and then I say "Come in and enjoy this factory at your leisure," and then a lot of people go in and make their own clothing, how, how on earth I ask, am I imposing on anyone?

If this became a practical solution for a whole lot of people, how on earth would it be imposing on capitalists? If they cannot change to meet the desires of the market, then that is their problem.

[AbolishAnarchism]

Why? What reason do you find it silly? Is it impractical?

To say the least.

Nope, they sound quite smart, to me. I mean, after all, wouldn't a poor person happily work in such a factory as opposed to another job which requires that they work tens of hours a day for weeks before they can afford to purchase what they could have otherwise produced?

Because of risk preference, time preference, and responsibility preference (three things that socialists do not understand). All you are doing is giving your own opinion on the three factors. Fine. Those who agree with your preferences can form cooperatives or become self-employed or whatever. Why abolish capitalism when you can already choose to practice socialism?

I bought lemonade from some grade-schoolers on the side of the road just today (which is basically a cooperative). Does this not prove how easy it is to practice socialism within a free market economy?

Had P2P failed, had people cared about copyright and capitalist property online, had not copyleft become so pervasive, then, perhaps I would have written anarchism off as a fantasy. However, we have these clear and obvious examples of people not caring about capitalist property, and I find it hard to justify how they would feel differently if physical resources could be shared similarily.

Yes, we have wikipedia and youtube as well, where everybody provides services for free. You do realize that people can already do these things under a free market economy, correct?

The Argentine coops were a great example of workers taking over the workplace, but they had within their coops no mechanism for external forces to come inside and do their own job. They're designed with capitalism in mind, not with freedom in mind.

Yes, the lemonade stand I mentioned earlier was also an example of workers democratically managing their own workplace. They did not need to overthrow the government to accomplish such a thing.

You do realize that you could continue practicing your little pathetic capitalism in a pervasively anarchist world, right?

This is a lie. The entire point of anarchism to abolish capitalism and economic prosperity. Anarchists, like all leftists, do not understand the difference between capitalism and corporatism, so they go out and start believing all of this tripe.

You do realize you could continue practicing your pathetic socialism in a pervasively capitalist world, right? Capitalism permits socialism, but not vice versa.

Pfft, how would we be imposing our beliefs? If I make a factory using my own capital, and then I say "Come in and enjoy this factory at your leisure," and then a lot of people go in and make their own clothing, how, how on earth I ask, am I imposing on anyone?

If this became a practical solution for a whole lot of people, how on earth would it be imposing on capitalists? If they cannot change to meet the desires of the market, then that is their problem.

You can do such a thing right now. Why is overthrowing government and letting all the degenerate child molestors/rapists free necessary for your little experiment?

[Guest]

gotta love two non-anarchists debating anarchism. what a useful forum.

[tedster]

gotta love two non-anarchists debating anarchism. what a useful forum.

Or is it one non-anarchist with two personalities.

[Yuda]

Or is it one non-anarchist with two personalities.

Nah, one lives in Colorado the other some other US State