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Why does anarchism matter to me?

Criticisms of anarchism, anarchist vs. non-anarchist debates & anything generally antagonistic towards anarchism. Guest posts welcome.

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Postby Pomegranate » Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:52 pm

Anonymous wrote:And of course I'll have to relinquish my wealth. What else would a revolution of the proletariat against people like me mean besides losing my property at best? What exactly do you want me to do, anyway? I can't change the fact that I'm white, male, and heterosexual. I can hardly be faulted for enjoying a high standard of living (and don't tell me you wouldn't feel the same way if you were in my position). Do you seriously expect me to apologize for being white or American? Do you want me to use up my wealth getting a sex change? If anarchists expect me to wallow in guilt for the rest of my life because I have "white privilege", I think I'll just stick with a less hostile political theory.


gosh, you've decided not to be an anarchist!? and here this whole time i thought you were serious...
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Postby Yuda » Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:07 am

well I'm white male and hetrosexual and like you I'm not wallowing in guilt I'll leave that to the emo crew
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Postby Guest » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:52 am

well I'm white male and hetrosexual and like you I'm not wallowing in guilt I'll leave that to the emo crew


Then what is all this stuff I hear from anarchists? All white people are racist, all men are sexist, but black people can't be racist and women can't be sexist. Since you obviously expect people to feel guilty about racism and sexism, it follows that you expect all white men to more or less wallow in guilt about things they simply can't fix.
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Postby Pomegranate » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:01 am

Anonymous wrote:
well I'm white male and hetrosexual and like you I'm not wallowing in guilt I'll leave that to the emo crew


Then what is all this stuff I hear from anarchists? All white people are racist, all men are sexist, but black people can't be racist and women can't be sexist. Since you obviously expect people to feel guilty about racism and sexism, it follows that you expect all white men to more or less wallow in guilt about things they simply can't fix.


when are you going to take your silly red herrings and go somewhere else?
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Postby MilitancyFetish » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:18 am

Anonymous wrote:Then what is all this stuff I hear from anarchists?


Probably something you're making up.
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Postby Guest » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:07 am

Probably something you're making up.


You know, I honestly expected better from you. It seems you don't even know what happens on your own forum. Take a look at this article saying that the "white anti-racist is an oxymoron".

http://flag.blackened.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=71319
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Postby Mantar » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:50 pm

*ahem* That argument is pointing out the obvious fact that "white" is not a race or culture. It's an artifically constructed category designed to unite various european protestants against the underclass.
He is not arguing that anyone perceived as "white" is automatically racist, he's arguing that trying to act against racism while accepting a racist construct of identity is self-defeating and hypocritical.
I'm Irish. I can tell you, my great-grandfather was as pale as morning snow, but that wasn't "white" enough to cease being "that paddy son-of-a-bitch." We Irish folks got into the "white" category pretty late in the game, mainly because we were traditionally Catholics.

So.. Try again, Troll.
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Postby MilitancyFetish » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:31 pm

Anonymous wrote:
Probably something you're making up.


You know, I honestly expected better from you. It seems you don't even know what happens on your own forum. Take a look at this article saying that the "white anti-racist is an oxymoron".

http://flag.blackened.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=71319


I've seen it. We don't even know if the person who posted it was an anarchist; and, if they were, they still don't represent "anarchists" as an entire category of people.
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Postby Guest » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:31 am

racism and sexism are forms of hierarchy. they are racial and gender-based prejudice and immaterial discrimination*** in combination with power.

and, it is true that some white males have a difficult time understaning these issues. just like a very attractive woman would have trouble understanding a world where she is not looked at with desire, or a prince unable to understand the tribulations of the poor.

and there are tricksters on both sides. often, the two most disingenuous statments people make are "i am not a racist" and "you are a racist."

(***immaterial - i.e. nothing wrong with casting a white actor to play the role of a white person, but something is wrong with hiring a white person to be your accountant simply because he/she is white)
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Postby Guest » Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:29 pm

Well I'm sorry I was born with these genes. I can't control that I am white, male, and heterosexual and neither can millions of people. We're privileged, I understand, but if you try to guilt us into hating ourselves for it, I can guarantee that the anarchist movement will never have any success in many places.
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Postby MilitancyFetish » Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:57 pm

Anonymous wrote:Well I'm sorry I was born with these genes. I can't control that I am white, male, and heterosexual and neither can millions of people. We're privileged, I understand, but if you try to guilt us into hating ourselves for it, I can guarantee that the anarchist movement will never have any success in many places.


I actually really agree with this. There is definitely a lot of moralistic guilt-tripping that goes on in some anarchist circles. There is a fine line between acknowledging/making no excuses for/trying to transcend your own privilege and being made to feel ashamed of who you are.
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Postby Guest » Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:53 pm

Anonymous wrote:Well I'm sorry I was born with these genes.


you are? that's too bad. you shouldn't be. i kinda bet you aren't being very serious about this.

I can't control that I am white, male, and heterosexual and neither can millions of people.


again - you want to be non-white? female? homosexual? i kinda doubt it.

We're privileged, I understand,


no, i dont think you do. when you have walked a mile in someone else's shoes, you can just begin to understand.

but if you try to guilt us into hating ourselves for it, I can guarantee that the anarchist movement will never have any success in many places.


LOL - if one were to judge from this forum, "anarchism" would be 99+% white and male and about 90% hetereo. most women and 'people of color' that i know have no interest in white male dominated anarchist groups, and they organize separately.
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Postby |Y| » Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:01 pm

Judgemental anarchists are not anarchists, they're just lifestylist pricks who want the world to fit their pathetic preconceptions of how people should be. ;)
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Postby Guest » Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:48 pm

Frankly, this is a legitimate question that we in the developed world get.

I am a middle class, white man living in the US. I have a nice house, a good car, a job that pays well, and enough to eat... My life is confortable, enjoyable, and quite happy on the whole. My question to you is this: What do I have to gain from supporting anarchism? Given that I am already happy, confortable, and have everything I need, what reason do I have to help you overthrow the government and capitalism?


Frankly, this is a legitimate question that anybody in the first world should have. We can start with work.

The odds are that you are bossed around for most of your day. Even if you're a mid-level manager, your have bosses to report to. Hell, even if you're the CEO you have a board and shareholders to report to. And I'm sure you work pretty hard. And, if you're a corporate or public bureaucrat (having been a manager once I include management in this class), do you really want to wallow your life away doing a job a computer and employee meetings could do just as, if not more, efficiently?

For what end? To have the share price go from 12.40 to 12.78? Wouldn't you like more of a say in what it is you do at work?

And what is your product ? Is it some useless service (like privatized health insurance) that solves a problem created by massive marketing blitzes, corrupt politicians, and, generally, capitalism in the first place?

If it's socially useful (like lawn mowing), or demanded by a lot of people by virtue of its inherent value (like an art gallery), then, again, wouldn't you like more control over your workplace? If it's a sole propietorship, well, odds are you aren't living as comfortably as supposed. But even if you love your socially useful job, most people would like to work less hours a week. By cutting all the bureaucratic, profit-generating fat, you can spend more time with your "loving family and friends."

Assuming you live in the developed world, to have the kind of life style you describe while still working (I'm assuming you're not living off an inheritance/savings or public welfare) you're spending at least half your waking hours at your silly job.

So this is the case for the syndicalist (socialist?) side of anarchism.

As far as abolishing the state, I can think of a few reasons.

First, an argument by marginality. You mention you aren't subject to:
being killed in war, arrested without good cause, or experiencing a famine


But the very nature of the state means that you could wake up tomorrow and find yourself in these very conditions. Do you really want to live with that risk? Do you want your children to live with that risk? And don't think it won't happen, because it has. Just ask your elders about being conscripted out of the blue, being told one day that they can't smoke what they were smoking before. Not to mention the caprice of capitalism more generally, like the risk of losing your home because you got in a car accident and couldn't pay your medical bills.

Second, think of your tax dollars.

In the US case that you cite, for example, they pay local property taxes, state taxes (analogous to taxes to a provincial unit), and federal (national government) taxes. Local schools, police, and fire departments are funded through property taxes. Roads and infrastructure make up a pithy proportion of federal and state taxes. But your heaviest tax burden is usually on the federal and state income taxes. I'm assuming your company is taking care of your retirement. What do you get in return? How about a giant bombers, legislator's salaries, and pollution clean-up costs created by government subsidized industries? This argument holds less for social democracies like Norway. Still, that's income you could have spend on popcorn or whatever which you have no say over.

Same goes for your family. If you want to practice birth-control with your wife, depending on what the state has done, if you live in parts of the USA, for example, you won't have some choices. Even if you never exercise your right to smoke a joint, say, there's a lot of mental comfort in knowing that if you ever wanted to try it, you could without fear of "arbitrary" detention. As it should be for victimless "crimes". This kind of comfort can be seen when supermarkets stock their shelves. Even if customers won't buy everything, there's something strangely reassuring to shoppers about seeing so many varieties.

If there is no practical reason for me to support anarchism, then maybe there is a moral one. For the sake of argument, let us assume that I have no belief in morality and that any attempt to appeal to moral obligation will not work on me unless you can show that such an obligation truly exists. What arguments can you present that would show that I am morally required to support anarchism, even if I do not need to support it to gain anything?


If you have nothing to gain, by definition you won't advocate anarchism. But even the "priviledged" global elite that constitute the upper 30% of the first world have a good deal to gain by replacing capitalism. And the fact that you have everything you "need" doesn't tell us much. Even a goat farmer in Afghanistan usually has everything he "needs" in the form of food, shelter, and clothing. If humanity was content with what we "needed" we'd still be living in caves (and, to the online primitivists, that's not a good thing). So it's more about what you want, not what you need.

These are practical reasons based out of self-interest, which is still a form of morality.
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six pages on this shit?????

Postby skullcap » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:05 pm

Anonymous wrote:Let us envision a scenario: I am a middle class, white man living in the US. I have a nice house, a good car, a job that pays well, and enough to eat. I have friends and family that care about me and a wife and children. I am in no immediate danger of being killed in war, arrested without good cause, or experiencing a famine. My life is confortable, enjoyable, and quite happy on the whole. My question to you is this: What do I have to gain from supporting anarchism? Given that I am already happy, confortable, and have everything I need, what reason do I have to help you overthrow the government and capitalism?


you have no reason. if you enjoy your life and do not want to foment anarchy, then don't.

if revolution breaks out you may be eliminated, along with the rest of the class enemy, though.


If there is no practical reason for me to support anarchism, then maybe there is a moral one. For the sake of argument, let us assume that I have no belief in morality and that any attempt to appeal to moral obligation will not work on me unless you can show that such an obligation truly exists. What arguments can you present that would show that I am morally required to support anarchism, even if I do not need to support it to gain anything?


there is no moral reason to support anarchy. whether you gain or not, there is no need for you to support anarchy at all. as an aside, most anarchists don't hold moral beliefs anyway.
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