Hostility

[Selkie]

Don't get me wrong, I love you guys and anarchists by default. It's just something I've seen a lot and I am curious why.

Anarchy is love, or should be, yet some anarchists can be so hateful at times. I can understand anger and pointing out how fucked up people and the world are. I really can. And I agree. But sometimes a little politeness to your fellow anarchist can go a long way.

Like, those of us who don't like government and are anarchists but are willing to vote to use it to keep people we really hate out of office. Sure it can be argued that no matter what we vote, nothing will change, but shouldn't we be using all possible ways to change the world for the better? If we see a candidate who supports increased civil rights in one area and one candidate who doesn't, are we really such terrible people for voting for the first candidate? At the very least, we're trying to help and that in itself is deserving of some kindness.

Beyond that, a lot of anarchists are hostile towards, like, liberals. As a liberal myself I can't understand it. Sure, a lot of liberals are working within the system and we're against the system. Does that really make them such vile bastards? Many liberals like myself want to make sure that even if the system still exists, at the very least it is as fair as possible. More civil liberties, less forced religion, work against racism and sexism, etc. I can definitely understand not even wanting to work within the system but those who are trying to do the right thing at least deserve some respect.

I think anarchy can only ever work if there is mutual, given respect (not earned, respect should be something you are given by default as a living being) and a willingness to open your arms to those who are still in the system and who are frustrated with it and want to leave it but are seeing only hostility from anarchists. If you show them hostility it is going to drive them away and they are going to stay in the "safe" system.

[Yuda]

liberals have a certain agenda, they are not interested in anarchism or any radical left ideology, they are just interested in chipping the rough edges of the status quo.

Personally I've worked with liberals on a few occasions - during Aotearoas' versions of broad left coalitions I found that it was the anarchists who did all the donkey work, running around postering, leafletting, getting everything else set up but usually it was the liberals who ended up being the 'faces' of the protest or action by being the speakers or the media friendly spokespeople.

I'm tired I should have been asleep hours ago.....

[Selkie]

Of course they aren't interested in anarchy, they don't think it will work (well, not all, there are leftist anarchists like myself who don't like the government but are willing to work with it) but as you said they are trying to change things for the better, it's like the civil rights movement, are you going to hate the people trying to get rid of segregation because they are trying to change the system?

But beyond that...I just can't understand why so many anarchists are hostile to the rest of the world, it's not going to win many converts. Someone who is starting to think like an anarchist and is interested, who is trying to reach out to people on like a forum, is going to probably turn right around if they get verbal stones thrown at them for working within the system.

Get my point?

[ambi]

a liberal is merely someone who believes that someone "in the trades", who does not necessarily have royal blood, should be allowed to accumulate capital "wealth."

that is all.

one cannot be an anarchist and a liberal. not in the US sense of the word (yes gays, no guns,fake welfare state) and not in the worldwide sense of the word (pro-business, anti-regulation).

i'll explain more when i've had some sleep too, yuda..

oh, and there aint shit wrong with pissing on murderers and rapists aka obama supporters.

[Selkie]

Ambi, thats exactly what I'm talking about. I'm a murderer and a rapist because I'd rather have Obama as a president than McCain? WTF?

I'm sorry, but dude you need a reality check.

[ambi]

you only see things from the US perspective, and you only count americans as human beings. that's the inescapable conclusion since you have no problem going into the booth and choosing someone who IS going to rape and murder 100% innocent people - based on the fact, based on the history, based on logic.

but when asked to provide the facts, logic, and reason behind your actions, you claim you don't "have to."

well, you don't "have to" go and vote for obama either. it is completely voluntary on your part. obama has pledged to attack pakistan if there is "actionable intelligence" which we all know is what presidents call lies.

so when you go into that booth, you clearly dont give a fuck about the lives of pakistanis - who are human beings. oh sure, you'll tell us "mccain is worse!" but you dont provide any facts, logic, or reason to back that statement up.

and since you've no facts, logic, or reason to bolster your heinous violent actions, you go around calling your accusers impolite and immature instead of providing the support for your argument.

you aren't being polite to pakistanis and lots of other people that obama wants to kill, don't expect to be treated with politeness in return. you would not "respect a difference of opinion" if that opinion was "pakistanis are less human than americans," nor should your opinion to that effect be respected.

[Selkie]

Uh, your kind of being an ass. People like you are going to drive away those interested in anarchy away.

Yes, I actually do care about those who don't live in the US. I support free borders, and my fiance is foreign. I support helping the people in Darfur and want the war to end.

I'm sorry, but do you have any FACTS that these presidents will definitely go and murder someone? No. So don't be an asshole about it, because in the end these are just opinions and anarchy is all about being free to have your own opinion.

Obama might go and try to get bin Laden in Pakistan, and I accept that risk, but imo McCain would be worse because he wants to stay in Iraq endlessly and would likely enact a draft. I also feel that Obama is just trying to look "tough" and is more of a diplomat than McCain. That's my opinion from listening to him. He may not be perfect, no one is and especially not a politician, but he's better than McCain imo which IS MY OPINION. I cannot let that happen with good conscience, thus I vote. It's the lesser evil.

So are you saying that because racism is an opinion, that suddenly all opinions are evil?

Your logic is terrible and you're being an ass. This forum is obviously not the place for civil talk, so whatever, I'm out of here.

[ambi]

but do you have any FACTS that these presidents will definitely go and murder someone? No.

are you incapable of reading plain words? EVERY SINGLE PRESIDENT FROM GEORGE WASHINGTON TO GEORGE BUSH HAS BEEN A MURDERER AND YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE TOTALLHY STUPID (OR MALISCIOUS) TO THINK THAT SOMEHOW TH NEXT ONE WOULD BE ANY DIFFERENT. 250 YEARS OF MURDER DOES NOT DISSAPEAR BECAUSE YOU WERE SO STUPID TO BELIEVE BULLSHIT ABOUT "HOPE" AND "CHANGE."

it's a shame you can't take the heat, but it is understandable since yo do not have the courage of your convictions. you would be much happier over at democraticunderground.org, where the politics are more in line with yours.

[Imnaxus]

Sure, a lot of liberals are working within the system and we're against the system.

Actually, that means you CONSTITUTE the system and aim to be the new dominator. It's as simple as that.

Like most people who bring death and chaos, you want to dish it out but hate when people accuse you of it

[Selkie]

Funny that you all say that. I'm actually working with others and trying to create an anarchist community, with full personal freedom.

I simply refuse to debate here any longer because obviously the intelligent ones are to be thrown out, and this place is bursting with idiots who think they're cool because they hate the state and are anarchists but refuse to respect anyone else's freedom of speech or personal freedom, or even simply give respect. Good luck living in an anarchist society, where people will grow sick of your bullshit and rudeness and kick you out, because only peaceful discussion and respect will EVER work.

I still hold to my ideals, but I realize now that there are too many hypocrits in the world, including hypocritical anarchists.

I'll be going and creating an anarchist's dream, while you go and whine about how you hate the state and piss all over yourself.

Cheers.

[Victor]

One of the main beefs with liberals is that they don't want to decentralize power from the system, but just give it the appearance of genuine progressiveness by pushing for reforms. The goal of the typical White-American Liberal is not to do away with the White-Power structure, but to incorporate women and people of color into the exploitation. It's like those who are for a border free America, but only to further the exploitation of Latinos. They use positivist philosophies to scientifically explain exploitation and claim that "as long as Hispanics learn English and work hard they can integrate themselves into American Capitalism. If they don't they just must be stupid". So basically, they can taste the wealth and luxuries of the white man, but need to first forget their culture and tradition. That is exactly why Obama is the American Liberals wet dream; a black man who happily serves popular business interests.

The only way to create equality in a society is to first do away with racism and sexism by completely decentralizing the power and letting each group control their institutions. I don't believe in achieving these means through peace, as violence will become inevitable. I believe in self-defense, which to me is securing stability by any means necessary in the community and is something that may draw conflict with liberals. I don't believe in Ghandi like resistance. I believe that any bureaucratic Capitalists who refuse to comply with the revolution should be lined up and rightfully eliminated by firing squad. Those who do comply, however, should be placed into labor camps both to pay off their debts for exploiting laborers and to help build what will be an unstable, post-revolutionary economy. They will basically gain a materialist perspective on the exploitations under the old system, while building the economy for the new. Any liberals who stand in the way however, will be given a few dutches and a bag of weed and told to listen to the Dave Matthews Band cd.

To sum it up, liberals are already too comfortable with the system to make any structural changes - let women and people of color maintain their own institutions - but only wish to give it a "progressive" image.

[Yarrow]

selkie, can you understand that your vote puts us one step closer to mass murder?

because that's what is being asked. once this point is clear, we can move on and continue this interesting discussion.

[Selkie]

You don't get it do you? How naive is the idea that just because you don't vote, magically the candidates will go away or not be politicians? Do you really think that if you don't vote, the government will magically fall apart or start doing what you say? If anything, I think because less people vote, the government gets away with more.

So you can cut the murderer crap.

[ambi]

So you can cut the murderer crap.

you are volunteering, of your own free will, to vote for a murderer, even though:

1) your vote does not matter - the system is entirely corrupt, from top to bottom, and including those institutions which are supposedly there to stop corruption.
2) the system was always corrupt from the very beginning
3) it cannot be reasonably demonstrated that one mainstream candidate's winning over the other would in any way be better or worse, even if your vote did matter.

the anarchists in the debate have backed themselves up with history (facts), logic, and reason. your only response has been "hey stop being mean! stop calling me a murderer!." you've been accused of murder and when asked to defend yourself with facts, logic, or reason, your response is "i dont have to!"

tired of being treated like shit? then simply tell us why you think it is so important that you cover yourself in blood, enter a voting booth, and pull the lever for murderer A or murderer B, using facts, logic, and reason.

of course, you wont be able to do that, so you will just get angry again, complain about how we think you're a murderer, and threaten to go somewhere and start a kickass anarchist thingamajig.

again, democraticunderground.org is calling. you will like it there, they will treat you well.

[Selkie]

No, you HAVEN'T backed up your opinions with facts, you've just been a hypocritical asshole. Sorry, but ya have.

What proof is there that not voting actually makes anything better? All it does is make sure that a small percentage of the country decide the policies for the rest of the country for the next 4 years. The few deciding for the many is ANYTHING but anarchism, you can at least admit that one.

Now offer me what proof there is, if, in your opinion no matter what both candidates are evil bloodthirsty murderers and it doesn't matter which one of them get chosen...offer me what proof you have if any that if I vote for either one of them, I am suddenly a murderer because in your opinion it doesn't matter because they are both bad. So, according to you, nothing changes when I vote thus my vote has no effect on policy THUS I am not a murderer because murder would be going on either way. Thus no matter what proof you offer your argument is void. My voting very well might change nothing, but at least I CAN vote and that is my opinion that I am entitled to. Would you demand I offer proof for why I would prefer a blue shirt over a red one?

Let's imagine, if you are still reading of course and not just typing a hate post, that there is a presidential candidate who based on opinion not fact, one might feel is the better candidate. He may not be an anarchist but he wants to change things for the better and supports things that you feel that if we are still living in a government, need to change. Maybe he wants to let gays marry, maybe he wants to separate church and state, maybe he wants more women's rights when it comes to abortion, maybe he seems less like a veteran warmongerer and more like a diplomat. They could be lying, yes, but they have to stick to their word to some extent. Maybe he has some trouble doing that and has changed his mind in ways that make you angry, but for the most part you like him.

Then let's imagine the other candidate. He's less progressive and more traditional, he's war-hardened and would be more likely to go to war, maybe he seems happy to and has no problem with it, maybe he values men's "rights" to Viagra more than women's rights to birth control, maybe he is racist, maybe he cheated on his wife and married a rich woman, maybe he's just an old traditionalist and you don't like it. You couldn't in your right mind vote for this guy.

Now, let's imagine that about 30% of the country is hardcore, conservative voters, and will continue voting that way no matter what. Then let's imagine 70% of the country is fed up with voting and thinks that voting is murder. So 30% of the country, the people who will vote AGAINST yours and our interests and ideals, and deciding who gets to run the country for the next 4 years. They will probably choose the candidate you like least.

But that's not exactly how it is, -yet-. I would rather continue voting so that a minority does not vote for me. My voting does not magically make the government stop working, it may not change anything. Does protesting always change things? No. Sometimes it does, in large numbers. It's the same with voting...I at least want to know I still can, and to have my voice heard.

At the very least, as by your own argument, nothing will change. So why does voting make me a murderer if nothing changes?

Of course I agree that the system is corrupt. I'm an anarchist. You may claim I'm not just because you disagree with me, and treat me badly (which is opposite the very idea of anarchism, which is personal freedom...I can tell that if you were in an anarchist society you would just try to have everyone agree with you and would treat them like dirt if they didn't. In that respect, even though you are opposed to the state you are more like a statist than an anarchist), but that's okay.

Again, while you spend your time "pissing on" those you disagree with and giving anarchists a bad name, I'll be actually doing something productive. We're planning on becoming an anarchist "sanctuary" where we can provide shelter and help to those in need, anarchist or not. So perhaps you should think about who is the "real" anarchist as you claim I'm not, and who is the one with conviction.