Hostility

[ambi]

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never looked into holocaust too much. can you point me in the direction of some documentation?

like i said, can of worms. how about just a gateway?

does 6,000,000 minus 2,500,000 still equal 6,000,000? remember the scene in 1984 where smith has to acknowledge that 2 plus 2 equals 5?

the plaque at auschwitz used to state that 4 millions had perished there. later, it was replaced with a plaque that says 1.5 million had perished there. and yet we were told both before and after of the great mythical number: 6 million.

not only are we told it is 6 million, but in much of the EU that's the law. if you stand on a street corner with a sign that says "only 5,999,999 died in the holocaust" you go to jail!

we're told the evil evil germans kept meticulous records of every single evil evil thing they did. should be a simple matter to produce 6 million death certificates then, no? if you are going to send people to jail for speaking words, maybe you ought to present the proof that what they are saying is a lie. does the truth need a law to support it?

so where does this mythical 6 million come from? a book. a very special book written a long, long time ago, long before WWII. a book that says some people are special, and everyone else is an animal to be herded.

if you really want a reference, the book to read is a little matter of genocide by ward churchill. he doesn't really touch the holy number, he just demolishes its place in history.

they say 'but hitler was a genius, it was others who were evil, he fixed a broken economy, national socialism is a good idea, etc'. all perhaps good points, but repairing the economy through creation of an illegal war machine doesn't do it for me. but then i was never in the german position. a way out will present itself.

yeah, evilness and genius arent mutually exclusive. one example of pure genius was hitler's dumping of fiat currency in favor of one backed by commodities and labor - it was for this reason more than any other that his side of the great deception war II (aka world war II) was slated to lose. the banksters dont play. they didnt much like it when JFK tried it 30 years later, either.

[|Y|]

Just FYI when it comes to "the western world" or to "the wealthy world" the estimates for mass murder or genocide are always higher than they turn out to be. The Jewish deaths and the deaths in general are still being revised and it seems the number comes down a bit from the original 5-6 million estimate and is in the 5.5 million range somewhere by most counts. It will probably come down by about a million or so as the documentation we have is scoured but I would postit that "over a million and the numbers beyond that are irrelevant."

A million people being exterminated is atricious. So what if it's 1 million or 10 million, it's an atrocity that isn't worth debating.

I just think it's interesting that the numbers for wealthy deaths are always overstated but when you see a catostrophe hit some third world shithole (or your enemies) the number is always understated.

Ward Churchhills book are written and designed particularly to sell, btw. "More American Indians were killed than Jews so it's worse!" Man, atrocities shouldn't be equivicated unless you're a fucking dipshit asshole.

[Yarrow]

interesting. is all this what the holocaust deniers are on about? because it's hardly important.

getting back on topic, i'm reminded of those tshirts- join us or get out of the way.

[Aaronmedia]

It shouldn't bode well when someone enters an anarchist forum saying women should be forced into childbirth for the Church

can you please point out where this was said?

this is how effective the polticial polarization of this issue has been. if someone stands up and says something perfectly reasonable like "pregnancy is preventable and abortion is harsh" then the automatic knee-jerk reaction is "you're against freedom of choice on abortion!"

no, i'm for 100% free access to abortion. at the same time, i think the reason the number of abortions is so high is not because of need, but because of profit and the wrong-headed belief that "well, i/she can always get an abortion, and condoms suck!"

(btw, there are anti-abortion anarchists who argue that abortion violates the rights of the yet-to-be-born person. that is a whole other can of worms, of course...)

Heh, the same sort of thing comes up when I talk about "affirmative action" with liberals on discussion boards. Despite the fact that it has nothing to do with ending racism or discrimination and everything to do with advancement of a small group of middle-class and wealthy minorities and women in the capitalist system (i.e. recruiting them in key social, political, and economic sectors as exploiters to create illusion of diversity) and dividing and fostering hostilities between minority, white working class, I'd get called a "white racist" and Republican by idiot liberals because that's where the political discussion in the U.S. is at these days. This is despite that a.) I'm a "person of color" (hate that fucking word) and b.) there is historical evidence of that this is a conscious attempt to prevent revolution (Nixon, master of Southern strategy, favored it, rich "civil rights" leaders have gone on record saying they're not concerned with equality, only access to the aristocracy). Then you have the right-wing who seizes control of this issue under the guise of "reverse discrimination" and exploit the worst racist fears among the white working class males, which is competing with minorities and women for jobs and education. And inevitably, somebody from the left would always ask me, "But isn't it better to address the wrongs of the past, blah, blah, blah." Well, if one would look at history and the current social state of affairs and then ask an inner city or migrant worker if affirmative action is helping them, see what they say. Racism doesn't end until the hierarchical structures that put it in place are destroyed. Period.

Anyway, yeah, have fun with those knee jerk reactions.

[Aaronmedia]

Just FYI when it comes to "the western world" or to "the wealthy world" the estimates for mass murder or genocide are always higher than they turn out to be. The Jewish deaths and the deaths in general are still being revised and it seems the number comes down a bit from the original 5-6 million estimate and is in the 5.5 million range somewhere by most counts. It will probably come down by about a million or so as the documentation we have is scoured but I would postit that "over a million and the numbers beyond that are irrelevant."

A million people being exterminated is atricious. So what if it's 1 million or 10 million, it's an atrocity that isn't worth debating.

I just think it's interesting that the numbers for wealthy deaths are always overstated but when you see a catostrophe hit some third world shithole (or your enemies) the number is always understated.

Ward Churchhills book are written and designed particularly to sell, btw. "More American Indians were killed than Jews so it's worse!" Man, atrocities shouldn't be equivicated unless you're a fucking dipshit asshole.

I'm reminded of a quote from Buck Turgidson, the fanatical Air Force general from Dr. Strangelove:

"But it is necessary now to make a choice, to choose between two admittedly regrettable, but nevertheless *distinguishable*, postwar environments: one where you got 20 million people killed, and the other where you got 150 million people killed."

Ha ha.

[|Y|]

Heh, yep, I agree 100%, Affirmative Action is Regulatory Capitalism, it's designed to placate certain areas of society to keep Capitalism Going On Strong. It has no actual effect toward equality (an impossibilty in capitalism), merely the illusion as such.

[Yarrow]

talking of hostility, i just read your blog franco.

and i notice that here and there you're very quick to insult people, and judge them.

stop it, it is counterproductive. are you a troll or just rude and stubborn?

@)

[Francois Tremblay]

And you don't think calling me a troll publicly is not rude? If you have a problem with something I said, you could at least PM me and discuss it civilly instead of making vague public accusations. It seems to me like you're the one trying to start a pointless fight.

Yes, it's true that I am not a very patient person, but I really do want this environment to be less hostile. And you're not helping.

[hoodie]

I just can't understand why so many anarchists are hostile to the rest of the world, it's not going to win many converts.

Selkie, you are wise to see that social evolution is a lengthy dialectical process, and that any step, including Liberalism, that is to the Left of repressed, anal-conservatism is a positive step in that process.

Still, you’re being unrealistic in your defensiveness, because every child raised in hierarchy will, do to hierarchical man’s oral and anal fixations, develop a latent hostility towards the rest of the world.

Anarchism, because of its unique and powerful critique of our hierarchical world, is especially attractive as an effective means to express our repressed latent hostility.

This is typical of how hierarchical man expresses his failed personality.

Being an Anarchist won’t change the latent neurotic fixations of our hierarchical personalities.

So don’t get upset when the hostile boot steps on your face, because that hostility is an uncontrollable, compulsive symptom of every hierarchical child’s oral fixation.

[Yarrow]

thank you hoodie...

and also, FT, i didn't call you a troll. a question is not a statement.

[Francois Tremblay]

Heh. Yarrow, you're a real cut-up.

[ambi]

interesting. is all this what the holocaust deniers are on about? because it's hardly important.

hardly important? tell that to the people of gaza, who at this moment are being slaughtered and isolated from the rest of the world because the people of the USA are so fucking stupid as to believe the holocaust bullshit that they send israel $6 billion dollars per year - while being the world's largest debtor!

hardly important? tell it to the people sitting in jail right this moment for the "crime" of saying that 6 million minus 2.5 million does not equal 6 million!

hardly important? try making a hollywood movie about the ukranian holocaust, or the punjabi holocaust, or the kenyan holocaust. try making a hollywood movie in which arabs are portrayed as good people. try explaining to a brainwashed-by-hollywood fool that 9/11 was more likely to have been executed by israelis than by arabs using nothing but facts - and see what happens.

but most of all, keep in mind that the same laws that put those oh-so-evil holocaust deniers in jail will be used to jail you and me next. the USA now has "hate crime" laws as well. the laws in the EU are being expanded. already people have been arrested in the UK for the "crime" of pointing at someone at yelling "lesbian!"

[Yarrow]

hardly important? tell that to the people of gaza, who at this moment are being slaughtered and isolated from the rest of the world because the people of the USA are so fucking stupid as to believe the holocaust bullshit that they send israel $6 billion dollars per year - while being the world's largest debtor!

that's not because Namericans are stupid, or because of the holocaust.

hardly important? tell it to the people sitting in jail right this moment for the "crime" of saying that 6 million minus 2.5 million does not equal 6 million!

there are more important laws to be broken, imho. perhaps i should have written 'hardly important to me'- though that's just as cold. i know very few jewish people, so am probably being ignorant on this point. but to struggle against a law that states the death of six, rather than 3.5 million people seems strangely...pedantic? to me. as always, open to criticism.

hardly important? try making a hollywood movie about the ukranian holocaust, or the punjabi holocaust, or the kenyan holocaust. try making a hollywood movie in which arabs are portrayed as good people. try explaining to a brainwashed-by-hollywood fool that 9/11 was more likely to have been executed by israelis than by arabs using nothing but facts - and see what happens.

anyone here not know hollywood is bad for you? anyone here still watch their films? and if you can't win an argument with facts alone, it's not worth fighting now. sorry but everyone knows hollywood (and all capitalist entities) is biased. if they don't take the time to consider that point, that's not my fault. they're too busy, and they can either blame themselves or the system for that one.

and franco: my criticisms were not vague.

[ambi]

that's not because Namericans are stupid, or because of the holocaust.

disagree. if you ask USamericans why the zionist entity in the middle east deserves support, they will invariably refer to the euro-jewish holocaust. and i'm sorry, but USamericans are stupid - by design.

there are more important laws to be broken, imho. perhaps i should have written 'hardly important to me'- though that's just as cold. i know very few jewish people, so am probably being ignorant on this point. but to struggle against a law that states the death of six, rather than 3.5 million people seems strangely...pedantic? to me. as always, open to criticism.

if the discussion is limited to what is "important to [you]" then there isn't really much to discuss, is there? you arent exactly being oppressed. i assume you are fed and housed and clothed and not subject to much in terms of violence.

the point is not 6 verses 3.5. the point is an entire menagerie of lies that have been deeply embedded in the western conscience to the point that entire swaths of nations have made it illegal to even question the facts as they are presented. furthermore, these lies result in death and misery for people who have done absolutely nothing to deserve it.

(might as well take the lid off the can) it isn't just palestinians who have suffered the consequences. the german people have been blamed for something far, far more heinous than what is most likely to have actually occurred - not just in terms of numbers. the fact is that the nazi regime was pushed on them by outside powers (just as the bolsheviks were pushed on russia, just as demopublicans are pushed n the US), but you won't be seeing any of that on the history channel.

meanwhile, the zionist entity has been allowed everything that other nations are not allowed. there is only one nation in the middle east that has nuclear weapons - over 200 of them. that nation is not a signatory to the NPT. as a matter of fact, a minister of that nation once stated that the missles were pointed at the capitals of europe. it is the only member of the UN that does not have defined boundaries - while their fucking flag states clearly their desire to conquer all of the land 'from the nile to the euphrates' - neither of which, in case anyone cares to notice - are in israel.

meanwhile, it is illegal for a US business to boycott israeli goods. the US oil reserves are pledged to israel first, and to the US second. AIPAC is the single most powerful lobby in washington and demands that all candidates for all offices display fealty to israel - or else - just ask cynthia mckinney.

meanwhile, the US sends it dumbfuck oklahomans and idahoans to rape little iraqi boys because the zionists demand it, just as they are demanding the US murder innocent iranians now.

all all of this is being justifed by a big fat lie called the holocaust. when you bring up any of it to a USamerican, the answer is always the same: israel first, because of the holocaust.

anyone here not know hollywood is bad for you? anyone here still watch their films? and if you can't win an argument with facts alone, it's not worth fighting now. sorry but everyone knows hollywood (and all capitalist entities) is biased. if they don't take the time to consider that point, that's not my fault. they're too busy, and they can either blame themselves or the system for that one.

if we are talking about the ills of the holocaust lie and zionism, hollywood is highly relevent as it is a major mind control media for the state, for zionism, and for perpetuating the holocaust lie. it's interesting to see you pull out all that "too busy" and "dont care" stuff. people are too busy to care about most of the stuff discussed on this forum, but when certain topics come up, it's fingers-in-the-ears, stomping, and screaming "people dont care! nah nah nah cant heeeeear you. doesnt matter to me!"

[Yarrow]

consider me educated, thank you.

but the whole not caring thing is an interesting point that could throw up lessons to learn. i'm quite nitpicky, i care about a lot of subjects. but i didn't care about that because i was busy on my path, doing my thing, and i guess that's how other people feel a lot of the time when they hear the things i do care about. perhaps the lesson is to always bring it home, to emphasise how this affects them and where they interact with the victims and perpetrators- ie, where they can make a difference.

but i'm in britain. do u americans agree with this analysis of your countrymen? over here we hate the israelis (and think they're creepy)- but the palestinians are pathetic scum.