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Postby Tom » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:58 pm

Sexism and racism are middle-class attitudes?


Not exclusively, no.

Anyway, from my experience, the problem with people from middle-class and upper-class upbringings is that they have a severe lack of understanding of the situation of the poor. They also tend to have an attachment to their privilege.


Yes, but not only the poor, very often other "races" and women's oppression. An inability to comprehend the nature of sexism and racism is present in everyone who isn't victim to one or both of these things, but obviously that person can overcome it by learning and changing their behaviour.

I don't think it can be summed up as simple white middle class male privalidge. It's far more complex than that. But because white middle class males are at the top of the privalidge ladder it is only natural that they will attract most of the flak for that position.

And i'd also like to point out that i dont think ive read a single article by her (or many feminists or any other group) that attacks anything other than the behaviour of white middle class males. They are not wrong because they're white middle class males (none of which can really be helped), but they're wrong because they act like asses, and very often they act like this because of their inability to think in any other terms than that theyre used to.
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Postby Morpheus » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:58 am

The Black Flag wrote:I seriously can't help but to wonder if she'd insult me for not being poor as hell.


She wouldn't, but she might insult you for hording wealth and refusing to share it with others. Kirsten frequently doesn't have enough money to pay for food and will become homeless in less then a week because she can't afford housing. She thinks middle class radicals should share some of their wealth so that she doesn't starve and get kicked out of her home. She gets lots of shit because she's constantly criticizing priviledge (of all types) where ever she finds it, and that ticks off people with priviledge 'cause they usually don't like having their priviledges criticized or even pointed out.
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Postby Guest » Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:56 am

re: what morphy said...


bingbingbingbingbingbing!
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Postby Guest » Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:27 am

blingblingblingblingblingblingbling!!!
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Postby Guest » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:24 pm

I hope Kirstin grows up.
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Postby Aaron » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:44 pm

Morpheus wrote:
The Black Flag wrote:I seriously can't help but to wonder if she'd insult me for not being poor as hell.
She wouldn't, but she might insult you for hording wealth and refusing to share it with others. Kirsten frequently doesn't have enough money to pay for food and will become homeless in less then a week because she can't afford housing.


She could always get a job. That's how my family of five got by in the early years: both my parents worked shitty jobs. And that was in the 1980s. It's not much, but it's certainly better than begging, or assuming that anybody who doesn't want to help you or can't help you is some classist, sexist asshole in denial.
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Jobs

Postby Guest » Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:48 pm

Aaron wrote:She could always get a job. That's how my family of five got by in the early years: both my parents worked shitty jobs. And that was in the 1980s. It's not much, but it's certainly better than begging, or assuming that anybody who doesn't want to help you or can't help you is some classist, sexist asshole in denial.


Can we keep the Republican comments off of this anarchist board? You sound exactly like my Republican father and his friends.

Let's try to have some understanding of our fellow worker's situations and not assume that they aren't trying to find "jobs." In this economy, it's not easy finding work even if you are totally flexible.
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Postby Guest » Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:07 pm

How People Become Homeless in America
By Kirsten Anderberg (www.kirstenanderberg.com)

It is clear that the middle class do not understand what is going on when it comes to the struggles of people in poverty, because they are not being presented with those struggles. As a matter of fact, part of the job of the mainstream media, our government, and the police, is to HIDE homelessness and poverty struggles from the middle class and elite sectors of society. Part of the "freedom" America is fighting for in Iraq, is the freedom to benefit from a wide capitalist class chasm WITHOUT GUILT. Without guilt is huge. It is no fun to have a mansion if everyone stands outside your gates calling you a pig and you are shamed and scorned as a glutton always. Mansions are only fun if everyone envies you and treats you as superior for such acquisitions. Having expensive trendy clothing is not fun if you are called a jerk, rather than cool, for having them. It is pretty easy to take the "joy" out of exclusive perks for the privileged, by just pointing out how elitist they are. That is why they try to keep poor people out of sight, and out of mind, of the privileged classes. So part of class insulation is not having to be called out for gluttony, and to be gated and protected from seeing or hearing about the plights of the poor.

How do people become homeless in America? This is something the typical middle class person does not understand due to the privilege of having those struggles hidden from them. When I did a bunch of personal interviews at a local homeless encampment in Seattle called Tent City, many of those living there had jobs. They told me they had jobs, they had money. But no one would rent to them. And I can personally verify that this is truth. They are not making this barrier to housing up. I am facing it myself.

For instance, every single application I have filled out for housing in the last few weeks has asked if I was ever convicted of a felony. One place I applied to a few weeks back, misread a screening report and rejected my application based on me being a convicted felon. But I am NOT a convicted felon. I told this potential landlord that was false information, and her response was, "If you THINK you are not a felon, you need to talk to someone." If I THINK? No, I KNOW I am not a felon. But I was cast with such a weird shadow of suspicion and prejudice for being MISTAKEN for a felon, that it reminded me how oppressive this American "freedom" is. And it got me to thinking. They ask if you were ever a convicted felon on every single housing rental application. If you are a convicted felon, even if you already served your time, you apparently are going to be rejected housing on a large scale. I was just treated horribly because they THOUGHT I was a felon. So what is jail all about, if you continue to pay your dues to society forevermore? If you have EVER been convicted of a felony, even if you paid society back for your wrongs through captivity (however that works), you will be denied most nice housing.

There are other barriers to housing. Poverty itself is a barrier to housing. Since 1979, landlords have been denying rentals to me based on the premise that I do not earn three times the rental amount. And in 2005, the same requirement is being asked of me still, and it is far too steep a hurdle. Without lots of money in store somewhere, and a job that pays twice the minimum wage, at least, it is a struggle to find landlords who will rent to you. Right now, for a $600 a month one bedroom or studio apartment in Seattle, which is about the average cheap price out there, you are required by many landlords to earn $1800 a month, which is well over $7 an hour times 40 hour weeks. A month with 5 weeks in it, will bring in $1400 before taxes; a month with 4 weeks, only $1120, before taxes. With this model, the full time minimum wage employee is eligible for housing units that cost $374 a month, which is not realistic. I have not seen one apartment advertised in Seattle at under $500 a month in the last month, and I have looked at hundreds of ads.

Another barrier is credit history. Even if you have a solid rental history, credit history will prevent you from getting rentals. I have not been a day late on rent in over four years, nor have I ever caused property damage to my homes. Yet my negative credit rating is preventing people from renting to me, even with first and last month's rent up front and a damage deposit equal to another month's rent. Last week, a friend of mine tried to offer an apartment $800 in a deposit, as well as us offering first and last month's rent (all of which I had to scrape and borrow to get ahold of) and I was still denied, based on bad credit history! My friend then even volunteered to cosign the lease for me, and they still refused, based on my credit history! I do not owe enough to go bankrupt like people I know who just discharge $200,000 in debts for cars, vacations, etc. I just owe enough to prevent me from being allowed to pay yet another land owner's mortgage for him. I owe just enough to make me homeless, but not enough to go bankrupt over.

Another barrier I am running into is work history. Since I am a freelance writer and performer, in addition to being a contracted laborer at times, and am paid sporadically and unpredictably, no one wants to rent to me, even though my rent has not been late once in over 4 years. Additionally, the places I publish could frighten a landlord. Telling a landlord I am well-published on anarchist/feminist/pagan/activist sites and in radical media, may not win them over. Sending them to my website could be fatal. Proving I have income is very hard. Some third party is supposed to do that. But what am I supposed to do? Send prospective landlords to editors who have published me a few times? That is absurd. So, I can barely prove I work at all.

Another barrier I am running into is the $40 application fees. I cannot keep giving these people $40 to turn me down based on all these reasons. I tell them up front about my finances and rental history, and yet, they take my $40 and reject me based on those reasons! I have to struggle to make FOOD money. Now I am just handing over $40 a piece to APPLY to places, that are turning me down one after another. Soon, I will have spent all my rent money on application fees, and will be homeless. Once homeless, I will have no contact phone for prospective landlords to call. Not having a cell phone and trying to find housing on foot, and by bus, is also ridiculously hard. I am becoming physically exhausted from trying to find housing, as well as emotionally exhausted from these hurdles being thrown in my path that I simply cannot clear. You may wonder why I am looking for an apartment, rather than shared housing. Well, I found that no shared housing wanted older women. Seriously. When I went to interview after interview at shared housing, it was always younger people and they always looked at me like I was REALLY old when they rejected me for the young chick who applied. So, I have given up on that, and am simply trying to just PAY for housing for myself now. Which is seeming more and more impossible.

So, I have scraped together first, last and deposit monies, I have even found help to pay for some application fees, yet I am still facing homelessness in 5 days. I have been looking and applying for housing nonstop for weeks now. I have a near perfect rental history. I am a good tenant. But I cannot give my money away due to hoop after hoop I am told to jump through, hoops I CANNOT jump through. Hoops put there on purpose to keep the poor out. So, the next time you see a homeless person, you need to realize they may have a full time job, but just be denied housing based on this long list of prejudices I just outlined here. I think one of the most important roles that perhaps activists need to start looking at pursuing is becoming apartment managers, so that people like me can get rentals. If you are a land owner, please consider turning your property into affordable housing, with reasonable rental requirements that include the working poor, immediately. No peace until everyone has a place to sleep. "And he who has deserved to drink from the ocean of life deserves to fill his cup from your little stream." - K. Gibran
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Re: Jobs

Postby Post_industrial » Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:25 pm

Guest wrote:
Aaron wrote:She could always get a job. That's how my family of five got by in the early years: both my parents worked shitty jobs. And that was in the 1980s. It's not much, but it's certainly better than begging, or assuming that anybody who doesn't want to help you or can't help you is some classist, sexist asshole in denial.


Can we keep the Republican comments off of this anarchist board? You sound exactly like my Republican father and his friends.

Let's try to have some understanding of our fellow worker's situations and not assume that they aren't trying to find "jobs." In this economy, it's not easy finding work even if you are totally flexible.


Actualy, I agree with Aaron. Kristens articles suck, and do more to turn people away from Anarchism then they do to attract people.

Alot of us are poor. She at least has her own place, while I have been staying with family, and living in a tree house in the forest, taking showers at the YMCA and local college.

Kristen and Morphues seem to have alot in common as far as justifying hatred twards other people bassed on race, class, and sex.

Now what happens when two people who dont like each other play diferent marginalization cards against each other?
Who can cry victim louder between a poor white female, and a poor non-white male? Should they both hate each other for being members of groups that oppress each other?

This logic digusts me, and its just as bad as any form of racism as far as I can tell.
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Postby The Black Flag » Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:05 pm

I'd share, if I could, but I can't, at the moment. I fully intend to help as many people as I can, when I can get my own feet, fully on the ground. I even have a way that may help people, in this town. It's capitalist as hell, but it will atleast give people hope. I plan on opening up a business (not sure what, yet, but I'm pondering), the catch: I'm hiring nothing but the extremely poor and homeless. My business will have a big room in the back, enough to house my homeless employees, with like three, four showers. They could bring sleeping bags and stay there. It's a capitalist way, but I'd be able to help in a capitalist world. My point: I'll help people, when I'm able, but I'm not fully on my own, yet.
When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. -Bertolt Bercht
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Postby Post_industrial » Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:08 pm

The Black Flag wrote:I'd share, if I could, but I can't, at the moment. I fully intend to help as many people as I can, when I can get my own feet, fully on the ground. I even have a way that may help people, in this town. It's capitalist as hell, but it will atleast give people hope. I plan on opening up a business (not sure what, yet, but I'm pondering), the catch: I'm hiring nothing but the extremely poor and homeless. My business will have a big room in the back, enough to house my homeless employees, with like three, four showers. They could bring sleeping bags and stay there. It's a capitalist way, but I'd be able to help in a capitalist world. My point: I'll help people, when I'm able, but I'm not fully on my own, yet.


You should look into intentional communites, and organic farming.

This way, you can create a co-op that at least is run somewhat on anarchist principles, have a product that will bring in some revenue to take care of these people, and you will be able to house a larger number of people and feed them with a portion of your own crops.
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Postby The Black Flag » Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:14 pm

Sounds well enough, but I have a head for business (isn't that out of place for me), but I wouldn't know where to begin with something like that. =( If I find out the details, I'll definately run it through the logic filter n see what comes out. =) I have it in my head to help, but I still have to find out the how of that. o.O
When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. -Bertolt Bercht
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Postby Guest » Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:12 pm

I hope Tor doesn't get sued by Kirsten for copyright infringement.

Kirsten is not for freedom. And in fact, she is not for gender equality, as she claims and as many have defended her feminist position on (her position is not remotely feminist, not in the guise of the majority of the worlds feminist organizations; American feminist organizations and thought processes are basically "women are better than men" whilst feminist orginaztions around the world, yaknow, the ones that try to keep certain Arabs from burning their wives and so on, are truly against oppression). She stands for nothing but an authoritarian message of hate, whichever one puts her ego above the rest.

The "civil liberties problems" in rich states pale in comparasion to those in the subjected states. Complaining about them is just assinine, and it achieves very little. Especially if you isolate yourself like Kirsten is doing.

Kistens money issues are easily resolved by moving to a southern or other type of low cost state. I can get her an apartment here for $150 a month. Oh man, she can live with me for free (I have let over 2 dozen people stay here in the last 6 months)! Maybe I could talk some sense in to her.

BTW, most homeless people have psychological problems (ie, the vast majority are elderly and mentally destitute). They want to be homeless (I am by no means trying to depreciate the real hardship that some homeless people endure, but this is the wealthiest state in the world, and it is usually a temporary situation for most).
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Postby Y » Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:20 pm

That other Guest was me.

And Morpheus. Kirsten is EXTREMELY PRIVLEDGED. Get that through your fucking head, man. This is the WEALTHIEST STATE IN THE WORLD, it is ridiculously easy to get money here. But MOST PEOPLE work their ASSES off (AND they live with their familes, pooling their collective wealth together). She wants to get through life mooching. Okay, fine, but when you mooch, you have to have less than an acceptable lifestyle (like, say, not getting apartments in west coast cities). And when you alienate all those who help you (like Infoshop, though the money was very little, it was something), you really do become destitute.

$600 a month for rent is a fucking JOKE. I pay less than that that for a 5 bed room 3 bath HOUSE.

In her other post she was bitching about how the American lifestyle cannot exist without hurting those lower in the hierarchy (currently, a true fact, however, not necessarily a universial truth, as we can find solutions that change that, but that's diverging from the topic). Well, how about she do some goddamn introspection and see that HER LIFESTYLE cannot be supported BY HER. And that if she wants to be that way, she has to fucking MOVE to where it's reasonably supportable.
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Re: Jobs

Postby Aaron » Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:51 am

Guest wrote:
Aaron wrote:She could always get a job. That's how my family of five got by in the early years: both my parents worked shitty jobs. And that was in the 1980s. It's not much, but it's certainly better than begging, or assuming that anybody who doesn't want to help you or can't help you is some classist, sexist asshole in denial.


Can we keep the Republican comments off of this anarchist board? You sound exactly like my Republican father and his friends.


Can we keep the ignorant assumptions off of this anarchist board? Simply because I disagree with Kirsten does not make me a Republican, or some privileged, middle- or upper-class asshole who doesn't understand the plight of the poor. My family -- read: family, not just one, lonely person -- has been in situations like that before, too. When you're poor, you don't go live in an expensive city like Seattle. That's just ridiculous. You move to a rural area, or to the South, or to the Heartland. In rural areas, houses, apartments, and land are not expensive, and while it is more difficult to find jobs, it is by no means impossible, especially if you're creative.

For a poor person, Kirsten does not sound very frugal. I posted information on how she could get a new computer for about $250 (she kept on implying that she needed closer to $800, or something), and she never responded. I can't help but feel that she's only interested in attention, or satisfying whatever psychological problems she may have.

Don't get me wrong, not having money is terrible. There's no excuse, however, for living in a city like Seattle and expecting people to pay for your posh living quarters. My brothers just recently landed an apartment with two bedrooms, a kitchen, a living room, a dining room, and a bathroom for $500 a month. Granted, it is in one of the poorest cities in Massachusetts, but when you don't have money, you don't look for homes in Cambridge or Boston (or Seattle).

In fact, my brother and his girlfriend lived in Brooklyn for years while she went to graduate school and he made his income as a bicycle-taxi.

I don't often agree with |Y|, but in this case, he's absolutely right. Even when you're poor in a place like the United States, you're still privileged.

Let's try to have some understanding of our fellow worker's situations and not assume that they aren't trying to find "jobs." In this economy, it's not easy finding work even if you are totally flexible.


Trust me, I have plenty of understanding. That's why I disagree.
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