christian anarchism?

Aeon135 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:04 am

i have, of late ,been considering chrisitan anarchism, and sometimes i feel we focus to much on ancaps for not really being against authority, just government authority, christian anarchists bow to authority also, the authority of "God" or whatever they wanna call there sky bully, iv never heard anyone suggest it before but can christian anarchists be put in the same camp as ancaps? i don't know, i don't think so, but its worth pondering..
i suppose it relies in gods existence, i really doubt theres a god, im technically an agnostic but i say im atheist to avoid the whole "so your 50/50 on the question god?" debate.
if god exists then then he is imperfect, because he created an imperfect creation, if god were perfect id understand, but hes clearly a lazy shit (assuming, still, he exists), so there bowing to an authority unconditionally that isn't really perfect, and even governments mean well sometimes, so im seeing a mirror image here
if god doesn't exist then the bow to authority, unconditionally that doesn't exist, which seems crazy
any thoughts? i have yet to meet a christian anarchist, any here that could help me out?

thelastindividual · **Joined:** Tue May 19, 2009 8:14 am **Posts:** 1012

Just as a side note agnosticism does not meant that you're undecided it means that you don't believe that the answer to the question is knowable. Most 'agnostics' are agnostic atheists since atheism entails lack of belief not a belief in no gods.

Anyway atheism is in my view almost as silly as christianity in that they assume that the phrase 'God exists' has some kind of meaning to be debated. But that's nonsense, God is neither empirical nor tautological thus it isn't even worth debating. Ignosticism wins the debate by default.

As for christian anarchism as long as they aren't forcing anyone to submit to their God then it's fine. Also most christians see their god as sort of a best friend rather than a divine authority. Plus once we enter anarchism then the poor material conditions that create a need for christianity will dissapear and people will start getting a lot less religous.

That's my two cents.

patrickhenry · **Posted:** Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:58 pm

Quote:

i have, of late ,been considering chrisitan anarchism

If their anything like howard? please consider Taoism..

Guest · **Posted:** Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:16 am

There's nothing silly about atheism. As was said, it's simply non-belief in deities. That's no more silly than non-belief in Star Wars characters. It does strike me as rather silly that we have a word for it, but that's justified by the fact that most people DO believe in deities. If most people believed in Chewbacca, I'd feel the need to set myself apart from the idiot majority.

As to the whole atheist/agnostic thing, much as I fucking loathe the insufferably annoying authors, this is a reasonably good explanation of why most agnostics ought to be calling themselves atheists.

Christian anarchists need to read Bakunin's "God and the State." But as long as they defer to their preferred mythological character without imposing it on others (including "their" children), then who cares? We all defer to imaginary friends, most of us just call them "ideologies," which are just opinions, not facts.

TeflonMaster · **Joined:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:13 pm **Posts:** 7

Christian Anarchists should be considered anarchists as long as they profess solidarity with the rest of the working class and do not impose their beliefs on others.

Any anarchist, even the most anti-theistic, should read Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You. If you don't want to, then I fucking beg of you to find a copy online and just read Chapter 5 (and if you are a Christian or just curious, Chapter 3 is awesome as well), it is a fucking miracle how good it is. Here is a quote:

Quote:

Whether he be master or slave, the man of to-day cannot help constantly feeling the painful opposition between his conscience and actual life, and the miseries resulting from it.

The toiling masses, the immense majority of mankind who are suffering under the incessant, meaningless, and hopeless toil and privation in which their whole life is swallowed up, still find their keenest suffering in the glaring contrast between what is and what ought to be, according to all the beliefs held by themselves, and those who have brought them to that condition and keep them in it.

They know that they are in slavery and condemned to privation and darkness to minister to the lusts of the minority who keep them down. They know it, and they say so plainly. And this knowledge increases their sufferings and constitutes its bitterest sting.

The slave of antiquity knew that he was a slave by nature, but our laborer, while he feels he is a slave, knows that he ought not to be, and so he tastes the agony of Tantalus, forever desiring and never gaining what might and ought to be his.

The sufferings of the working classes, springing from the contradiction between what is and what ought to be, are increased tenfold by the envy and hatred engendered by their consciousness of it.

The laborer of the present day would not cease to suffer even if his toil were much lighter than that of the slave of ancient times, even if he gained an eight-hour working day and a wage of three dollars a day. For he is working at the manufacture of things which he will not enjoy, working not by his own will for his own benefit, but through necessity, to satisfy the desires of luxurious and idle people in general, and for the profit of a single rich man, the owner of a factory or workshop in particular. And he knows that all this is going on in a world in which it is a recognized scientific principle that labor alone creates wealth, and that to profit by the labor of others is immoral, dishonest, and punishable by law; in a world, moreover, which professes to believe Christ's doctrine that we are all brothers, and that true merit and dignity is to be found in serving one's neighbor, not in exploiting him. All this he knows, and he cannot but suffer keenly from the sharp contrast between what is and what ought to be.

Guest · **Posted:** Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:59 am

good stuff, indeed.

BillyWitchDr. · **Joined:** Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:53 pm **Posts:** 28

thelastindividual wrote:

Also most christians see their god as sort of a best friend rather than a divine authority.

I disagree, as someone who went to numerous churches over the span of 10+ years, the rhetoric is overwhelming, a submission to metaphysical authoritarianism. Yes there are philosophical Christians like Quakers, Unitarians, Universalists, some radical Catholics etc. that fall outside this paradigm, but they are by far the minority.

I think philosophical Christianity and unprogramed [1] worship can be compatible with anarchism, but the religious, mass programed worship variety, is not.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ ... ed_worship

jack · **Joined:** Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:48 pm **Posts:** 580

Christians can't be anarchists, but they can be mocked.

Insecuritykiller · **Posted:** Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:28 pm

Sure they can be anarchists you fucktard! You obviously have no idea what it means to be an anarchist, its how you treat other human beings, not what things you believe.

Howard509 · **Joined:** Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:56 am **Posts:** 670

Christian anarchism is the belief that Christ is Lord, therefore Caesar is not. It should be remembered that Jesus and the early Christians were very much opposed to the corrupt power structures of their time.

AndyMalroes · **Posted:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:05 pm

Howard's post count is 666 :lol:

anyway...Emma Goldman and hell of a lot more jewish people were anarchists, why don't you worship them?
Thanks to Patrick Henry for my argument and accompanying list of names.

Quote:

[edit] A
Yehuda Ashlag[citation needed]
Paul Avrich[1][2]
[edit] B
Fanya Baron[3]
Julian Beck[4]
Alexander Berkman[5]
Walter Block[6]
Abe Bluestein[7]
Mykel Board[8]
Dmitry Bogrov[9]
Murray Bookchin[10]
Martin Buber[11]
[edit] C
Noam Chomsky[12]
Daniel Cohn-Bendit[13][14]
Paul Crossley[citation needed]
[edit] D
Sam Dolgoff[15]
Eric Drooker[16][17]
[edit] E
David Edelstadt[18]
Carl Einstein[19][20]
[edit] F
Senya Fleshin[21]
David D. Friedman[22][23]
Abraham Frumkin[24]
[edit] G
Allen Ginsberg[25]
Emma Goldman[26]
Paul Goodman[27]
Abba Gordin[28]
Philip Grosser[29]
Mark Gunnery[citation needed]
[edit] H
Paul Hefeld[30][31]
Hirsh Hershman[32]
Abbie Hoffman[33]
[edit] K
Franz Kafka[34]
Maria Korn (Marie Goldsmith)[35]
Tuli Kupferberg[36]
[edit] L
Gustav Landauer[37]
Uno Laur[citation needed]
Bernard Lazare[38]
Jacob Lapidus[30][31]
Philip Levine[39]
[edit] M
Albert Meltzer[40]
Moisei Mets[citation needed]
Ida Mett[41]
Mark Mratchny[24]
Erich Mühsam[42]
[edit] P
Rose Pesotta[43]
Jonathan Pollak[44]
[edit] R
Simon Radowitzky[45]
Maksim Rayevsky[46]
Iuda Roshchin (Iuda Grossman)[citation needed]
Murray Rothbard[47]
David Rovics[48][49]
[edit] S
Alexander Schapiro[50]
Sascha Schapiro[51]
Saša Schlümper (Samuil Nahimovich Beilin)[citation needed]
Sholom Schwartzbard[52]
Karl Shapiro[53][54]
Moishe Shtarkman[55]
Daniel Sieradski[56]
Ida Silberblatt[citation needed]
Marc Silverstein[citation needed]
Mollie Steimer[21]
Vladimir Striga (Vladimir Lapidus)[57]
[edit] T
Olga Taratuta[58]
Moishe Tokar[59]
[edit] V
Manol Vassev (Yordan Sotirov)[citation needed]
Volin[60]
[edit] W
Chaim Leib Weinberg[61]
Rose Witcop[62]
Milly Witkop[63]
[edit] Y
Saul Yanovsky[64]
[edit] Z
Yankev-Meyer Zalkind[65]
Howard Zinn[66]

patrickhenry · **Posted:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:16 pm

Quote:

Christian anarchism is the belief that Christ is Lord

Can we all say OXY FUCKIN MORON!!!!

AndyMalroes · **Posted:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:21 pm

OXY FUCKIN MORON

Insecuritykiller · **Posted:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:58 pm

He certainly was a lord to the christians. Like i would call you my lord if you impressed me enough.

Keep on the issue and that issue is workers getting theived upon. Religion isnt, or shouldnt be an issue to anarchists.

Our enemies are the ones that steal from us.

AndyMalroes · **Posted:** Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:18 am

Quote:

Like i would call you my lord if you impressed me enough.

what if you witnessed the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL battle station!

christian anarchism?

Who is online