Anarchist uprising in Spain 1873?

[Guest]

I was just wondering if you know anything about an anarchist uprising in Spain around the time of 1873?What do you know about it? <br> <br>You see,i was talking to a marxist who was babbeling on and on about how anarchist sell out their ideals and ideology when it matters the most (i.e during a revolution or close-to revolution). He said that this has happened everytime throughout history. Then he qouted some critique that Engels made of some Spanish uprising in 1873 and how the anarchist sold out everything they stood for there. <br> <br>What do you think of this? Is he right?

[Guest]

it's funny to call this uprising "anarchist" when there weren't really any anarchists in spain at that time, at least not in any form that could have allowed them to "sell out" that struggle. the 1873 uprisings were "cantonalist" and republican, in that the people who were involved were against the monarchy and for a more regionalist organization of the spanish state. it wasn't an anarchist struggle, although anarchists were involved in various areas. it was a decentralist struggle and it lasted only a short time (the uprising in the port of cartagena lasted longest). blaming anarchists for the "failure" of that series of uprisings puts far too much power into their hands. as i said, there weren't that many anarchists in spain at that time. that's like saying that since the paris commune included some anarchists, and it was suppressed, that means that the anarchists in paris were responsible for the failure of the paris commune. ridiculous. it's another example of marxists using false allegations against anarchists in order to avoid the criticisms anarchists make against marxism. that is not to say that anarchists are beyond reproach; they are not. but to criticize anarchists for what they have and still do is one thing--to criticize them for what you think they might to is quite another.

[Guest]

Thank you,thats the informatgion i needed. Apparently it was Engels who wrote about that uprising to "prove" that anarchists betray their ideals when things get tough. <br> <br>But what do you think about this claim by marxists in general? I mean,in Spain they DID betray their ideals by going into the goverment and in Mexico they cooperated with the liberals,so...

[HubertHH]

You gotta remember it was the CNT leadership that joined the government, not the actual people fighting... <br> <br>Anyway, Marxists are easy to deal with. Just memorise as many of their atrocities as possible and reel them off one by one until they get overwhelmed.

[Yhcrana]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>Just memorise as many of their atrocities as possible and reel them off one by one until they get overwhelmed.<p><hr></blockquote> <br> <br>Not to mention remind them of the obvious fact that vanguardism will inevitably result in dictatorship.

[HubertHH]

But it's a vanguard of the people! <br> <br>Silly anarchist.

[Yuda]

You've obviously have had this debate before.... <br> <br>Last time I had this debate I pulled that Bakunin quote that morph was using, I actually had a marxist lost for words - not an easy task

[HubertHH]

That bakunin quote got me into an argument about crime and the non-existance of punishment in an anarchist society. <br> <br>The commie that that happened with is a really nice person, but when it comes to his beliefs (he's quite into stalin) he's a complete idiot and fucked up.

[Kevin]

[color=green] Just memorise as many of their atrocities as possible and reel them off one by one until they get overwhelmed. </font color=green> <br> <br>Its often useful to specifically refer to those times in which anarchists have been the target of their atrocities.

[Yuda]

[color=red]The commie that that happened with is a really nice person, but when it comes to his beliefs (he's quite into stalin) he's a complete idiot and fucked up. </font color=red> <br> <br>Heh, that just about describes about every authoritarian commie I can think of just replace stalin with trotsky, mao, whoever

[Morpheus]

In the Mexican revolution the syndicalists cooperated with the moderate socialists, not the liberals. The peasant anarchists did not. As I recall, Engels criticized the anarchists not for "betraying our ideals" but for following those ideals in the 1873 revolt. He claimed that the anarchists should have run for election and allied themselves with the capitalists. It's hypocritical for Marxists to criticize CNT collaboration with the state in revolutionary Spain, since every major Marxist party advocated the same. In Mexico, Spain, Russia and elsewhere the mistake was not so much in betraying our ideals as in making bad alliances. In the past anarchists have been far to willing to give state socialists the benefit of the doubt - they're a bunch of back stabbers whom we should be vary wary of.

[Guest]

''Just memorise as many of their atrocities as possible and reel them off one by one until they get overwhelmed. <br> <br>Its often useful to specifically refer to those times in which anarchists have been the target of their atrocities. '' <br> <br>how many times does it have to be said that anarchists have never been 'betrayed' in a violent or any other way by communists

[HubertHH]

As many as you want, just bear in mind no-one would listen.

[Guest]

"You gotta remember it was the CNT leadership that joined the government, not the actual people fighting..." <br> <br>I said that, but he said that it shows the weaknesses of how anarchist organise. <br> <br>I can give you the thing the marxist qouted from Engels but i will have to translate it... <br>

[Guest]

Hee is the link to the critique of the anarchists during the uprising. It is in english. <br> <br>http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1873/bakunin/index.htm