Morph,
Why don't we try fixing our own society instead of bossing foreigners around.
Firstly, who says that this isn't fixing our own society? You must understand that we are as dependent on they are as they are us. This is the problem with capitalism, it strives off of interdependency, a fact I will bring up any chance I get. And secondly, who in the fuck suggested anything about "bossing foreigners around"? Is it "bossing" for anarchists to set up a fucking book store and handing out phamplets and extending a hand of friendship (such as helping them out if they say, want to start to use their land for themselves rather than the capitalist industries, by giving them what they need)?
This line of reasoning reminds me of that fascist/anarchist book someone wrote for online distribution (I don't know if you saw it, but there was a thread around here somewhere). The fascists were really pissed off that the anarchists came in to town and set up a book store "because they were bossing everyone around." Of course, I'm simplifying it, but that's the gist of the
fascist argument, because they were being questioned with new ideas which went contrary to their very way of thinking.
Perhaps the suggestion that anrchists would be rejected (which is the suggestion you must be making here, as any other explaination defies reason) is founded in reality, but we could never know until we tried, and I would wager that there would be some who found anarchism appealing. They needn't become magical atheists liberals who give up their religion, merely people who respect one anothers existance, such an effort is very minimal anyway, because in civilized groups this is the case anyway, otherwise you wind up with mobs of raging psychos.
H-G is right, your'e espousing a variant of the white man's burden.
Nope, you're wrong, you're merely projecting your preconcived notion of who I am and how I see things, because in some instances I have gone against your trivilization of certain issues.
White mans burden, in fact, is as many fascists/ancaps see the third world; ie, that "if it wasn't for Americans doing business in these other countries, they wouldn't have jobs, they'd be poorer and in abject poverty."
This is the real issue here, in my mind, not the act of going to other countries and spreading the word that
self reliance and independence is a good thing.
I continue to fail to see anything wrong with this! How can this be bad on any level whatsoever? Are ideas now bad when it's a white American who has them (yes, you know I'm white and I've said I'm American, and really, that's the only facts you know about me)?
Not surprising given your racist patriotism, espousal of the "yellow peril" and attempt to claim that the sanctions on Iraq made Iraqis better off.
That's a lie, I never once said that the current sanctions resulted in the Irsqis being better off. I was talking about potential scenarios and levels of complicity. I challenge you to find a quote that suggests that I said that. Of course the sanctions have resulted in horrors, but they didn't have to, unlike the neoliberal line of worldwide capitalist interdepdndency that suggests "the only way to survive is to be a part of global capitalism."
No they don't. 30% of working Iranians are involved in Agriculture and most of that is not self- subsistence.
You are correct, I am sorry for my information being crossed. The Iranians were nearly self reliant in the '60s, they went downhill as they moved to industry and capitalism became more pervasive in their society, and apparently the revolution was no help (I am reading several pages now about Iranian history, if you need a link). I was unsure of that comment actually, I was merely invoking a memory that the Iranians had experience in argiculturial self sufficiency. The fact that 27% of Iranians are in agriculture doesn't help my reasoning (I'd assumed, foolishly I guess, that this resulted in the Iranians being more self sufficient; but it's actually being exported, so sad).
This is another reason you shouldn't be going to Iran and bossing them around: you don't know what the hell you are talking about and instead substitute your stereotypes of "third world savages."
Who says I'm doing that? And who says that if I would, or if other anarchists would, that they wouldn't have a better understanding of the interworkings of their society? Also, what about saying that Iranians are self sufficient argiculturally suggests that they are "third world savages?" Is it not you who is introducing these racist concepts into this discussion? I have no idea what meaning you're attempting to convey, but you certainly do, please, do tell me what you think I think of the Iranian people, and how that makes them "third world savages." Really, I would enjoy reading your thoughts as to how I think.
Iranians have a better idea of how to run their society than westerners.
As far as I can tell, these Iranians have attempted to do the very things that I'm talking about, but they have failed. I don't know why, so why don't we find out why? They would only need to use 1/7th of their growable land, as far as I can tell. Perhaps it's because the Iranian elites want to keep them growing food to export to other nations instead of growing their own food. I wonder, do they benefit at all from the capitalist export industries? Are they exposed to anarchist propaganda at all, or is their society repressed (or do anarchists not care?)? I think that the Iranians could run their lives better if it wasn't a centralized state where questionable amounts of resources are being thrown out the fucking window.
Of course, my ideas are in opposition of those ideas generally associated with "westerners," but since I "live in the west" I guess my ideas are automatically invalidated.
They've still got problems, but they're better off than under western rule.
They'd better off if they were under no rule.
Considering the shape of western society it's pretty hypocritical for westerners to be having fantasies about telling other societies what to do.
So that's it, that clears it up right there. It's not my ideas,
it's where I'm from. You're no better than other nationalists or racists.
I simply cannot believe that that is your actual position. You're disagreeing with me on other grounds.
K=x'uksami, of course not, everything I say is
clearly imperialistic, as I cannot exist without
forcing my ideals upon others in a manner totally inconsistent with
any part of anarchist philosophy.
HG,
Assuming that Iranians are incapable of developing their own ideas and ways to combat hierarchy and oppression is a fucking racist assumption. Morpheus summed it up well.
Um, Americans are incapable of voting, that is not a racist designation. That's simply a fact. If a country is under oppressive rule, it is not wrong to say "I want to help those who are being oppressed." If a corporation in the US didn't have a union, and someone said that they wanted to start a union (and try to get others to join by convincing them it's a good idea, too), no one would have a problem with it, and certainly no one would consider it insulting (ir, racist, or unionist or something stupid) for that person to do so.
I'm looking at the fucking stats right now. 27% of the Iranian people are working in agriculture, yet the majority of their agriculture is still imported, what is wrong with this fucking picture? Am I wrong for saying I see something wrong with this picture? I say you guys are wrong for suggesting that it's okay for them to be part of the global capitalist network without anyone offering any alternatives (because that is seriously what you're saying here with this naive view that I shouldn't say, "hello Iranian people, I think your fucking government sucks, hell, I think all government sucks, now you can listen to me, or you can ignore me, but I felt it needed to be said. These are some ideas I have to help you rid yourself of your government, you might not like them, but if you don't, we don't have to work towards anything I am talking about.")
And of course, I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about people who fucking care.
They themselves could be Iranian. Would it be wrong of us to help Iranian anarchists?
This government apologist crap is making me fucking sick. You guys are not even listening. I'm gone for awhile.
by huntergatherer » Tue May 11, 2004 9:29 pm 
