Carnivorous Anarchists?

[Guest]

At last something sencere! Well done MStirner - One of the best posts i've seen on this forum. Given circumstances make one's outlook. Veganism and all...

[Yarrow]

do enjoying the benefits of a certain situation count as circumstances? for example many of us in the first world have the ability to live comfortably without meat, but choose not to do so because it's so tasty.

[AndyMalroes]

Is raping an animal immoral?

What says everyone has to fit into your idea of morality?

And you say you would put an animals life before yours. That's just fucking ridiculous. Let's say your house was on fire and a chicken was inside. If the decision was to save the chicken or your life. What would you do?

[Yarrow]

not sure who you're talking to Andy, but morality is (i believe) different for everyone, so it's a subjective statement. but your point about the chicken and the fire is a clear straw man. raping a humyn IS raping an animal, so it all depends on your idea of morality. humans vs. chickens, it's pretty wrong either way i think we'll all agree.

who said they value the lives of others above their own? i'd love to meet them and tell them how much i admire their compassion.

also, i don't think anyone said anything about enforcing morality. i believe we were talking about personal viewpoints.

[Guest]

Compassion is a wonderfull thing... when it's spent on chicken... otherwise i saw on tv a 500 lb bomb being loaded onto a plane on an carrier deck with inscription 'american tax-payers saying hi'... i wonder how much compassion was delivered by that bomb.Once upon a time there was a tee-totaling, vegan, animal-loving, spiritual person who couldn't harm a living thing.Or could he? His name was Adolf Hitler. If you have compassion don't waist it on chicken and wood worms.

[Francois Tremblay]

I have to agree with that- if we're gonna promote compassion, can we start with human beings? After that's done, you can promote compassion towards cows all you want and no one's gonna complain.

[Guest]

i just think we'll never achieve a peaceful and tolerant society whilst we teach that it's okay to harm certain beings unnecessarily. and why do we have to start with only some? to me that is comparable to saying 'freedom for all... but white people first'. you can't waste compassion, the more you give it the more you get.

and hitler wasn't a vegetarian, that's an urban myth. he was a painter though. specious reasoning.

to all those concerned, a question repeatedly asked that no-one will answer- why are you against the idea of compassion towards animals, specifically not eating them?

[TheThing]

Yes Hitler was a vegan, it's not an urban myth it's just unbearable for vegans to share something incommon with such a character. I've read the 'Mein Kampf' and a biography he never used any alcochol, was very compassionate about animals had several hounds which he adored and who accompanied him to his last moments in the Berlin bunker. He also scorned people who eat meat and was kinda spiritual indulging in a weird germanic/pagan/messianic cult with his SS henchman Heinrich Himmler. Yes he was also a painter. Only thing he used were amphetamines.

Why would i say he was vegan if i hadn't read somewhere? I don't hate vegans just think that imposing their view on others isn't anarchistic. I've tried a diet without meat and i had the worst couple of months ever. Results? Very bad.

As for compassion if you have 100 $ give 20 or 25 to someone who needs it the most. Compassion as a concept was developed by Humans and it should be done for humans first and foremost. In animal kingdom compassion is unknown. I have a cat and i've never seen it spare a rat or a lizzard it can catch. It even plays a game crushing a bit of the rats legs and letin' it go for a while and then cathing it again until it bored it and killes it.

Of course cruelty towards animals is bad. We should be fair as anarchists and grow animals we can actually consume for ourselves not to endulge in a industrial scale butchery.

[Guest]

hitlers' vegetarianism (why are we discussing this) is debatable. he reportedly ate meat throughout his chancellorship, but feel free to think what you like.

it's just unbearable for vegans to share something incommon with such a character.

i am a painter, you know. no denials here. the problem is more that calling ANYONE a vegetarian when they eat meat is an insult to those who stand by their beliefs.

i don't see any evidence of vegans imposing their views, just stating them. it seems to be the omnivores who are on the back footing here, being offensive etc. sorry to tar with a wide brush.

as for a lack of compassion in the animal, i don't know where to begin.
humans have the ability to interact with our society in any number of successful ways, animals not nearly so much. so it could be argued they need our help more than the poor on our streets.

but again, a question- why not stop eating meat, thus contributing less to a system of control and greatly reducing the amount of suffering you cause? many farmers are digging themselves a grave working for monolithic meat companies, because in the western world it's the easiest thing to do with a field.

most peoples' reasons for meat consumption boil down to taste, in my experience.

[Guest]

in fact most of it boils down to ignorance- of what these animals are fed, how they are raised, how the system raises the farmers, and how to live healthily without it.

[AndyMalroes]

Na it definately boils down to taste. I like lentil soup, papodoms etc. and enjoy them thoroughly but I just really like the taste of meat.

A couple of posts back I was accused of making a straw man. I would like to debate this, first. It was in reply to an earlier post that stated they would put an animals life in front of theirs. Second. You started a straw man by needlesly pointing out humans are animals too, when you could clearly see the point I was making was talking about animals that most people eat.

[AndyMalroes]

The reason for most of the omnivores' defensiveness stems from two things, being villified by peers as somehow less anarchistic than their vegie and vegan friends and the fact that they believe there are better things to be aggrivated about.

So anyway let's agree to diagree, as this is going nowhere.

[Achillea]

actually this discussion is really helping me.

we can be aggrieved by more than one thing at a time though, surely. i like to think we should start with compassion AS A WHOLE, rather than for certain groups. and surely us anarchists consider ourselves more informed (or whatever) than those who aren't? every moral decision brings with it a corresponding thought about those who haven't made that leap.

vis my straw man: my point was, raping a chicken is no different to raping a humyn. they are equivalent (the only difference being a humyn could involve the law).

vis yours: the chicken/fire situation is tenuous and tres unlikely, therefore by using the situation to counter an argument you are denying what no-one has said. that, i believe, is the very definition of our wicker friend. i can't actually find the point where someone stated they'd put animals before themselves, but i trust i missed it.

but your point about taste: you say that your enjoyment is more important than the suffering of others, because they are animals. i accept that, being a soil-treader, but you must realise these animals are being bred, tortured and killed needlessly. the only reason is so some people can enjoy a flavour. by that argument the fur trade, foie gras and even cannibalism (is certain circumstances) are (at least hypothetically) acceptable. if that gets your back up, read this: i once compared meat eating to fox-hunting (a touchy subject here in the uk). my thesis was both were done primarily for enjoyment. of course, my friend flipped. it seems when you talk about someone's values, a comparison is equivalent to them to a stab in the back.

[TheThing]

What is a humyn? I suppose you meant human and had a typing error, but u did it several times. Do u invent new words?

vis my straw man: my point was, raping a chicken is no different to raping a humyn. they are equivalent (the only difference being a humyn could involve the law).

When i hear this statement and living in a country ravaged by war (what was known as Yugoslavia) it makes me realy sad. Living in a place secluded from the miseries of this world such as UK (nobody's fault, don't get me wrong) realy distorts the perception of some people. My compassionate comrade how would you like to visit this place and spent some time here and then compare chicken with people. Few months ago i first got to know that there were such things as being vegan and that suprised me very much.

[Francois Tremblay]

I gotta agree that the comparison of people with farm animals, the comparison of meat-eating with the Holocaust, etc... has GOT to stop. It has NO place in rational discourse: it's inflammatory rhetoric on the same level than anti-abortion protesters comparing foetus-killing with murder.