our misunderstood allies? .....

[Noleaders]

The reason we should care is for our ideology to stay relevant. Your right there will always be new objections but thats why we should keep answering them and if needs be adapt our theory to meet them. Be dynamic otherwise its dogma.


Ill try get the ball rolling, voluntary exchange is legitimate but prior to the free market wealth was built up through illegitimate means so the wealthy had an unfair advantage in the free market and the current system is built on that so not FREE trade at all.

Also the false needs/alienation idea still works.

[Stealth]

I have seen no compelling evidence to suggest that participating in the political process brings you farther from revolution, or that failing to participate will make revolution more likely.

The IWW advocated many of the reforms that eventually manifested in a half assed form during the New Deal. They won many reforms through direct action as well as through local politics. They were however an essentially revolutionary union, not just reform activists.

[Francois Tremblay]

Relevant to who? To capitalists? Why should we care if they don't find Anarchism relevant?

[Stealth]

I would think that being relevant to the working class masses is essential to becoming more than a political subculture.

[Jawn Disease]

Stealth is right.

[Stealth]

Unless of course you are mostly just interested in Anarchism as a form of personal liberation or 'Anarchy as a state of mind' and just want to live dangerously for your teenage years. Then perhaps it doesnt matter if we ever get around to actually changing things for the better.

I prefer Anarchism, but more than anything else, I want to leave this place better than I found it.

[AndyMalroes]

First of all. Ancaps think anarchism is only against the government not coercion as a whole.
This leads to fucked up things like a private police force.

Secondly. Ancap managers would have greater power for union busting as they own the police force, the road you're demonstrating on and your liberty.

[Stealth]

In my opinion, a community watch/guard made up of responsible local citizens who answer directly to the people would be most ideal.

A publicly funded yet minimally accountable police force that answers to the state but not the people directly is a whole lot less ideal, but its still better than private security forces who answer only to the corporate robber barons with no accountability whatsoever and no restrictions on what they can do.

Anarchists are not necessarily against imposing limits on power. Anarchists are all about limiting and abolishing authoritarian power, which is why some Anarchists have supported reformist regulations that limit the freedom of authoritarians in positions of power through means such as renters and workers rights. Ultimately however, these become unnecessary in a collectivist or mutualist economy.

[leadhead]

This is something i'd like everyones opinion on.

"Capitalism is an economic system in which wealth, and the means of producing wealth, are privately owned and controlled rather than commonly, publicly, or state-owned and controlled"

what really struck me about this is the last part. Absence of state control. Were early capitalist theories rebellious, even anarchistic?

Im anarchist w/o adjectives, but like many of us dismissed ancap as just another system of exploitation. However having listened to their point of view im in agreement that the system we should all really be against is mercantilism, and we've never experienced true capitalism. Whenever the state intervenes with the economy it is bringing an element of mercantilism which has nothing to do with capitalism into the free market. It is also the reason for monopolies developing.
Im also convinced that atleast in theory ancap doesn't disregard the rights of the poor because in order to be rich in ancap you have to be providing a quality service to the public and at good value, and that without state intervention trade unions would have more power over workers rights basically that employment was a voluntary and co-operative action not a coercive one.

It certainly solves the problem of tyranny of the majority and essentially seems to be a system of people living their life free of intervention while not intervening with the freedom of others.
Not that i plan on calling myself ancap or that ive lost interest in collectivist anarchism but i see no reason to not include them in the anarchist spectrum.

thoughts?

Everything looks good on paper. Communism looks good on paper too. Ultimately it boils down to a system that even if not intentionally created that way gets dominated by a select group of elite people.

On a side note, if I fix up your computer in exchange for you to fix my roof, wouldnt that be considered a true form of capitalism?

[Francois Tremblay]

I would think that being relevant to the working class masses is essential to becoming more than a political subculture.

I was talking about capitalists, not the working class. Are you seriously saying that the working class is entirely composed of capitalists? If so you are deluded.

Stealth is right.

No he's not... unless you want to make the absurd statement that the working class cares only about capitalism.

[Noleaders]

This is something i'd like everyones opinion on.

"Capitalism is an economic system in which wealth, and the means of producing wealth, are privately owned and controlled rather than commonly, publicly, or state-owned and controlled"

what really struck me about this is the last part. Absence of state control. Were early capitalist theories rebellious, even anarchistic?

Im anarchist w/o adjectives, but like many of us dismissed ancap as just another system of exploitation. However having listened to their point of view im in agreement that the system we should all really be against is mercantilism, and we've never experienced true capitalism. Whenever the state intervenes with the economy it is bringing an element of mercantilism which has nothing to do with capitalism into the free market. It is also the reason for monopolies developing.
Im also convinced that atleast in theory ancap doesn't disregard the rights of the poor because in order to be rich in ancap you have to be providing a quality service to the public and at good value, and that without state intervention trade unions would have more power over workers rights basically that employment was a voluntary and co-operative action not a coercive one.

It certainly solves the problem of tyranny of the majority and essentially seems to be a system of people living their life free of intervention while not intervening with the freedom of others.
Not that i plan on calling myself ancap or that ive lost interest in collectivist anarchism but i see no reason to not include them in the anarchist spectrum.

thoughts?

Everything looks good on paper. Communism looks good on paper too. Ultimately it boils down to a system that even if not intentionally created that way gets dominated by a select group of elite people.

On a side note, if I fix up your computer in exchange for you to fix my roof, wouldnt that be considered a true form of capitalism?

Thats independant contracting so id say more likely to be mutualism. However the means of production would be privately owned and we would be freely trading so yeah could be.

I agree to some extent with austrian economics, although they kinda contradict themselves when it comes to workers. I also think some wage labour would be ok the problem is most of us have little to no choice. I used to be a libertarian a while back so i still sympathize with these viewpoints even though i dont entirely agree. Im not sure whether this is capitalism or mutualism or somewhere in between but yeah some of the ancaps are alright.

*Note SOME

[Jawn Disease]

So when has "reformism," gradualism, ever worked in the history of politics?

Reformism and gradualism has worked for the entire history of politics.

[Francois Tremblay]

So when has "reformism," gradualism, ever worked in the history of politics?

Reformism and gradualism has worked for the entire history of politics.

Give one example, please.

[Marja]

I can't believe I missed this thread.

First of all, I am a mutualist. I have been active here under another username since 2003 but have been less active since 2007 or so. We can take different interpretations of the limits of occupancy and use, and remain anarchists. We can be wrong and remain anarchists. However, when one calls for domination and hierarchies, one goes against anarchism.

We know that the term "libertarian socialism" does not refer to state, or even necessarily public, control of the means of production. We do not use their definition of socialism, and they do not use our definition of capitalism. We should not reason from the label.

We know that terms like "revolutionary socialism" or "socialism from below" can refer to libertarian or authoritarian tendencies; "anarcho-capitalism" is just as vague. Hans-Hermann Hoppe supports monarchy, feudalism, racism, patriarchy, and queer-bashing. Others don't, and many left-Rothbardians have ditched the label.

Secondly, there's been an ongoing debate within left-libertarian circles [basically, the range of ideas including mutualism, agorism, geoanarchism, etc.] about bigotry, the moral basis of libertarianism, the limits of pluralism, etc. I've been wondering what my social-anarchist comrades think of these matters.

[Insecuritykiller]

Everyone can be put in their place if the right words are chosen.

I'm an extremely annoying person.

There isnt any need to fear anyone. We should all come together and kick each others arses.

It's my opinion that our society is all about the pride received from being a worker. You goto work you do the right thing, you feel good about yourself. Go be a worker, go do a good job. You can fail in all areas of your life, but if you're working you're alright.

We need to hate ourselves more, making money or doing work doesn't make you a good person. You're nothing, you might as well kill yourself.

Or you can become a revolutionary warrior, because you loved life and you loved man. Service, all service is rewarded.

Ancaps. They are nothing but children. "I hate paying tax" "I hate paying tax" As if that was anything important at all.