our misunderstood allies? .....

[Insecuritykiller]

I only have one answer to all questions.

But i wont say it because then it will turn the thread off topic. You know what i believe.

[Francois Tremblay]

I can't believe I missed this thread.

First of all, I am a mutualist.

Wait up. You said you were a Christian. Now you're a mutualist?

Where exactly in mutualism does it say "believe in the archy of God?"

I'm always pushing for people not bickering amongst allies, but at least don't claim to be something you're not.

[Marja]

I forgot... you see parenting as inherently hierarchical.

I don't. I see my relationship with God in terms of nonhierarchical forms of student-teacher and child-parent relationships. What part of the mutualist tradition excludes this?

[Francois Tremblay]

Whoa there kiddo, I didn't say anything about parenting. How interesting that you veered towards my most controversial position the second I start questioning you. Seems to me like you're using tactics here.

I asked you a simple question:

Where exactly in mutualism does it say "believe in the archy of God?"

Since you are trying to evade it, let me SPELL OUT what this means, even though it should be obvious, especially since I used the term ARCHY.

Archy means ruler. God is the ruler of Heaven and Earth. God sets the laws (moral standard) and the punishments (Hell). God has complete control over human beings, because he created them.

Do you accept this? If so, what exactly makes you think you're an Anarchist, let alone a mutualist? If not, how can you be said to be a Christian?

[patrickhenry]

From a historical view revolutions usually begin with a ground swell of support but having no economic or political infostructure to sustain it the cause colapses into either a dictatorship or back to another form of state. mutualism calls for building the infostructure first to which hopefully no revolution is needed and if needed it would be small and precise.

[Marja]

Whoa there kiddo, I didn't say anything about parenting. How interesting that you veered towards my most controversial position the second I start questioning you. Seems to me like you're using tactics here.

It's directly relevant, because I understand my relationship with God in terms similar to my relationship, in childhood, to my parents. I don't see that as particularly hierarchical. You see that as inherently hierarchical. So to me, this is a non-hierarchical model; but to you, it is not.

I asked you a simple question:

Where exactly in mutualism does it say "believe in the archy of God?"

wtf? Mutualism is primarily a set of economic ideas. It spreads out into political and social ones. But it is not some totalizing philosophy that shapes every class of ideas. It is not like Marxism or Objectivism...

William Greene was a mutualist, and his theology was a lot more hierarchical than mine.

Since you are trying to evade it, let me SPELL OUT what this means, even though it should be obvious, especially since I used the term ARCHY.

Archy means ruler. God is the ruler of Heaven and Earth. God sets the laws (moral standard) and the punishments (Hell). God has complete control over human beings, because he created them.

Do you accept this?

1. Ruler of heaven and earth - Nope.
2. Sets the laws (moral standards) - Sets moral standards yes, indirectly, in the sense that God created consciousness, individuality, etc.; Sets laws, nope.
3. Sets the punishments (Hell) - There are no punishments. There is the choice to try to live without God.
4. Complete control over human beings [and everything in creation] - Theoretically yes, but God doesn't intervene all the time. I don't think God intervenes w/o our consent.

If so, what exactly makes you think you're an Anarchist, let alone a mutualist? If not, how can you be said to be a Christian?

If every Christian had to accept those standards, I doubt many early Christians would count. I embrace Christianity because of Jesus, His life, His teachings, and the insights this has given me into my life and my choices.

[Francois Tremblay]

It's directly relevant, because I understand my relationship with God in terms similar to my relationship, in childhood, to my parents.

God did not fuck your mom. You know that already, right?

wtf? Mutualism is primarily a set of economic ideas. It spreads out into political and social ones. But it is not some totalizing philosophy that shapes every class of ideas.

It's also an Anarchist worldview (no rulers).

1. Ruler of heaven and earth - Nope.
2. Sets the laws (moral standards) - Sets moral standards yes, indirectly, in the sense that God created consciousness, individuality, etc.; Sets laws, nope.

So you're not a Christian then.

If every Christian had to accept those standards, I doubt many early Christians would count. I embrace Christianity because of Jesus, His life, His teachings, and the insights this has given me into my life and my choices.

The whole reason why Jesus is important in Christianity is because of the rules God set out (original sin, salvation). Jesus came to save believers from their sins. Without this, there's no Christianity. So you're not a Christian, you just claim to be one.

[Marja]

It's directly relevant, because I understand my relationship with God in terms similar to my relationship, in childhood, to my parents.

God did not fuck your mom. You know that already, right?

Why would it matter? I know people who build solid relationships with non-biological parents even after fleeing their biological parents.

wtf? Mutualism is primarily a set of economic ideas. It spreads out into political and social ones. But it is not some totalizing philosophy that shapes every class of ideas.

It's also an Anarchist worldview (no rulers).

And I am an anarchist.

1. Ruler of heaven and earth - Nope.
2. Sets the laws (moral standards) - Sets moral standards yes, indirectly, in the sense that God created consciousness, individuality, etc.; Sets laws, nope.

So you're not a Christian then.

By your standard, neither Jesus, nor any of His first disciples were Christians. He clearly and explicitly denies any claims of rulership. See the Gospel of Mark.

If every Christian had to accept those standards, I doubt many early Christians would count. I embrace Christianity because of Jesus, His life, His teachings, and the insights this has given me into my life and my choices.

The whole reason why Jesus is important in Christianity is because of the rules God set out (original sin, salvation). Jesus came to save believers from their sins. Without this, there's no Christianity. So you're not a Christian, you just claim to be one.

Bull. Anselm invented the earliest theory of penal atonement, in the 11th century, and Calvin reinterpreted it in the 16th. It was unknown to the first thousand years of Christians, and has been rejected by many Christians since then.

[Noleaders]

Francois, people choose their religions so i dont get how its a hierarchical thing unless they start trying to force everyone else to follow their beliefs

[Francois Tremblay]

Francois, people choose their religions so i dont get how its a hierarchical thing unless they start trying to force everyone else to follow their beliefs

If you believe God is your ruler, it's an archy. That's what the term means. Do I really have to remind an Anarchist forum what archy means??

You cannot believe God is your ruler and be an AN-ARCHIST!

[Insecuritykiller]

Stop being silly. You know you are wrong.

[KruZer]

I originally adopted the position of anarchism as an "anarcho-capitalist" (though I was much more left than most anarcho-capitalists), and it seems since doing so I was continually pushed more and more to the left leading me to reject anarcho-capitalism, and neo-lockean property rights. There are a considerable number of people on the Mises.org forums that want towns to be privatized, or want the government to be privatized so we would have a for profit court systems, for profit police forces etc. I think, to be an anarchist, you have to ascribe to some sort of occupancy and use form of property rights. Large scale absentee ownership is not possible without a state, and that is why a lot of ancaps really just endorse privatized states.

[Zazaban]

Francois, people choose their religions so i dont get how its a hierarchical thing unless they start trying to force everyone else to follow their beliefs

If you believe God is your ruler, it's an archy. That's what the term means. Do I really have to remind an Anarchist forum what archy means??

You cannot believe God is your ruler and be an AN-ARCHIST!

Anarchism should guarantee people the right to be hypocrites if it's not hurting anyone.

[Marja]

I don't believe God is anyone's ruler.

And my views of this are quite consistent with early Christianity.

[Francois Tremblay]

If God wasn't dead, it would be necessary to kill it.