Communists?

[Theory5]

What is all this talk about communists? Why are they appearing in these forums? Don't communists want there to be a ruling government, an "inner" party that owns and controls everything? Anarchism is about there being no leaders, no government, no nations and borders. I don't get this.

[Noleaders]

state communits sure do.
anarcho communists just want the communist way of production i think

[Jawn Disease]

Technically a 'communist' is someone who is in favor of using revolutionary means to institute socialism.

Most communists attach a moniker such as Marxist-Leninist, Maoist, or Trostkyist. These communists believe in a vanguard party, made up of full-time 'revolutionaries', which will control the State and direct the general population so that the revolution is successful. At that point they're kind of supposed to start having free multiparty elections and so forth but history has shown us that for a variety of reasons, that just doesn't really happen.

It is also possible to be a communist and not support a vanguard party or indeed any form of State control. You would then be an anarcho-communist, or a socialist-libertarian, or a Marxist anarchist or a colectivist or even syndicalist or whatever the fuck you want to call it. If you want to change the relations of production from a capitalist model to a socialist model and you want to do it by physically taking over the means of production, then you're a communist of some sort.

[Francois Tremblay]

While I agree with almost everything said here, I have to object to this:

"If you want to change the relations of production from a capitalist model to a socialist model and you want to do it by physically taking over the means of production, then you're a communist of some sort."

I fulfill these criteria but I am not a communist. As defined technically (and not in the Marxist sense), socialism is distinct from communism. The main difference is in the identity of who takes over the means of production (the community as a whole, or the workers who use them).

[Jawn Disease]

While I agree with almost everything said here, I have to object to this:

"If you want to change the relations of production from a capitalist model to a socialist model and you want to do it by physically taking over the means of production, then you're a communist of some sort."

I fulfill these criteria but I am not a communist. As defined technically (and not in the Marxist sense), socialism is distinct from communism. The main difference is in the identity of who takes over the means of production (the community as a whole, or the workers who use them).

What is the basis of this claim?

[Francois Tremblay]

The basis of what claim?

[Jawn Disease]

The only claim you made

"socialism is distinct from communism. The main difference is in the identity of who takes over the means of production (the community as a whole, or the workers who use them)."

[Francois Tremblay]

Well, I read Benjamin Tucker and that's the distinction he makes. Not sure about Proudhon, as I haven't read anything of his yet.

[Stealth]

That is not the definition that most collectivist Anarchists use.

[Francois Tremblay]

Yes, I am aware that Marxist theory uses the term "socialism" to designate something very different, and that the ideology of most collectivist Anarchists has Marxism as an important source. I have no connection with Marxism.

[African_Prince]

Marx defined a communist society as being a society that was stateless, class/cashless and egalitarian. Based on this definition, the idea of a 'communist state' is an oxymoron. Although anarcho-communists and Marxist-Leninists share the same end-goal in mind, Marxist-Leninists believe that a 'dictatorship of the proletariat' (ie. workers overthrowing their capitalist exploiters and seizing control over the state) is a necessary transition period to such a society, anarcho-communists believe that the state and capitalism should be dismantled simultaneously. Marxists-Leninists are authoritarian, anarcho-communists are libertarian. Nobody would be forced to participate in an anarcho-communist society. The idea is that when human culture evolves and people learns to value compassion, unity and co-operation over single-minded, personal ambition, greed and competition, we would voluntarily form communist/egalitarian societies without coercion.

"socialism is distinct from communism. The main difference is in the identity of who takes over the means of production (the community as a whole, or the workers who use them)."

I agree. Socialists only advocate that the workers own and control means of production. Contrary to popular belief, socialists are not necessarily opposed to free market enterprise or class inequality, they do not necessarily advocate a 'redistribution of wealth'. I don't know why public education, free health care, welfare etc. are considered 'socialist' policies.

[jack]

classlessness....Redistrobution of wealth.

Erm yes, yes we do.

[African_Prince]

classlessness....Redistrobution of wealth.

Erm yes, yes we do.

Socialists are not necessarily opposed to free market enterprise, they do not necessarily advocate a redistribution of wealth. Private enterprise is common in socialist China, for example, and expanding rapidly.

[jack]

classlessness....Redistrobution of wealth.

Erm yes, yes we do.

Socialists are not necessarily opposed to free market enterprise, they do not necessarily advocate a redistribution of wealth. Private enterprise is common in socialist China, for example, and expanding rapidly.

I lol'd and spit my drink all over my monitor. China is more capitalist than the US, they have been since 1978 when Deng's market reforms began. You cannot be fucking serious to call China socialist.

Yes we are opposed to free market enterprise. Yes we do advocate redistrobution of wealth, because if wealth is still concentrated in the hands of a minority elite socialism is not possible, it would still be capitalism.

[African_Prince]

-Had to rewrite

There is a such thing as market socialism, whether you agree with it or not. You're confusing socialism with communism.