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Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Anarchism: What it is and what it is not.

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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby Garnier » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:05 am

The schizophrenic who kills people to appease the voice in his head is just as deserving of compassion as a child born missing her cerebellum. Both are misfortunes of nature. The same goes for a good number of child molesters, cult leaders, and pretty much every other flavor in the spectrum of human deviant behavior. Imagine the sort of man Adolf Hitler would have been if his parents had been loving and tolerant individuals. If a child rapist was raped as a child, then he deserves compassion for his suffering.


I don't know the quota of schizos in the murder statistics, bur there are murderers who a pragmatic, function within society and doesn't appear to have mentall illnes per say.
Hitler's parents were an average parents of that time and place. Nothing extreme.

In a sense, I do agree with Francois. If a person is flawed, his or her parenting will be flawed. All people are flawed, thus all parenting is flawed. If you recognize you're flawed and don't want to inflict suffering on another person, it's logical to conclude you might wish to refrain from having a child.


Yes we are all flawed. Should we pursue some sort of perfection? Is that achiavable in a life time? Where has personal choice went?

As for what do we do with a murderer in an anarchist society? I think that greatly depends on the situation and the people involved. Personal and group philosophies and all that. I for one wouldn't want to decide to punish a sick individual with a compulsion created from physical defects or years of abuse for something they might realistically not have control over.


You are compassionate person.
I'm not as much as you.
You will have compassion over the poor tormented serial killer.
I won't.
For a community to function in any rational and productive way (as of 2009 not 5009 AD) its prudent to defend oneselves. Defensive 'justice' not offensive off course.

Maybe there's differing in opinions due to our backgrounds. You haven't seen piles of corpses in your country. I have. After all personal experience largely determines who we are.
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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby Bodhisattva » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:27 pm

Yes, personal experiences do affect our outlook on life. The fact that you've had to see so many corpses bothers me a lot. I'm sorry you had to experience that. I recognize my fortune in that regard and I am extremely grateful for that.
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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby African_Prince » Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:45 am

I don't believe that child-adult sex is necessarily and inherently harmful or exploitatious. There's no good argument for the idea that it is, the stance that most Westerners have on child-adult sex is an emotionally biased one, many people have difficulty analyzing this issue from an objective sandpoint. Although we can apply an emotional or cultural context to it, without context, sex is just physical contact. If a child wants to have safe, consensual sex with an adult out of curiosity or genuine sexual desire, theoretically, they should be allowed to. Until the state is abolished, I would argue that child-adult sex should be discouraged because 1) most children look at adults as authority figures and some adults might use their status to coerce a child into having sex when they don't really want to and 2) being raised in a society where it is 'naturally' assumed that child-adult sex is inherently wrong, it isn't unlikely that a child who consented to sexual contact with an adult would eventually internalize societal attitudes about sex and come to view the event as having been very wrong or exploitation.

I don't see how an anarchist can rationalize indoctrinating children to have their subjective and arbitrary attitudes and values about sex and yet claim to be anti-authoritarian. Even though it does violate a child's self-autonomy, I understand not letting a child drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes because these things are harmful in physically tangible, non-arbitrary ways. Consensual, safe, sexual contact is not.
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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby hai » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:14 pm

African_Prince wrote:I don't believe that child-adult sex is necessarily and inherently harmful or exploitatious. There's no good argument for the idea that it is, the stance that most Westerners have on child-adult sex is an emotionally biased one, many people have difficulty analyzing this issue from an objective sandpoint. Although we can apply an emotional or cultural context to it, without context, sex is just physical contact. If a child wants to have safe, consensual sex with an adult out of curiosity or genuine sexual desire, theoretically, they should be allowed to. Until the state is abolished, I would argue that child-adult sex should be discouraged because 1) most children look at adults as authority figures and some adults might use their status to coerce a child into having sex when they don't really want to and 2) being raised in a society where it is 'naturally' assumed that child-adult sex is inherently wrong, it isn't unlikely that a child who consented to sexual contact with an adult would eventually internalize societal attitudes about sex and come to view the event as having been very wrong or exploitation.

I don't see how an anarchist can rationalize indoctrinating children to have their subjective and arbitrary attitudes and values about sex and yet claim to be anti-authoritarian. Even though it does violate a child's self-autonomy, I understand not letting a child drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes because these things are harmful in physically tangible, non-arbitrary ways. Consensual, safe, sexual contact is not.


You differentiate the physical from the emotional, there is no reason for the distinction, they are effectively the same in practice and have equal importance. Sex as the most physical of human of interactions is concurrently and consequently one its most emotional. By saying one has no effect on the other is plain Cartesian dualism, we cannot be halved between the mental and the sensual.
Children are not physically and therefore emotionally developed enough to decide for themselves what is most healthy, thats what childhood is, right? A responsible guardian would use physical force if necessary to stop a toddler sticking a fork into an electrical outlet.
For an adult to enter into such relations with someone who cannot give reasoned consent makes the engagement void and exploitative, one party has the the advantage over another in that they actually know what they are doing and are effectively imposing themselves given that no legitimate consent has been given.
Identifying when the "age of reason" occurs is of course the tricky part, indeed there is a broad scientific consensus that males usually only fully mentally mature in the mid-twenties :oops:
Adult will always have "authority" over children; in the sense I described what a child is. This is not a statist issue any more than gravity is a statist issue, its simply a matter of facts, not idealogies or prejuidices. For the reasons I mentioned, children are not equal to adults in this domain for simple physical circumstances; the adult was born earlier in time. If you think both are at the same emotional level then I assume you're in favour of children (as I defined them) being permitted to care for younger children themselves and even run their own family if they wish?
There is such a thing as legitimate authority; a teacher has certain power (in this case intellectual) over his students, but because it is legitimate, it is self-destructive i.e. the teacher's role is to eliminate his power by teaching his/her students everything they know. By the same token, an adult's/parent's role is to elimate their authority (in this case experience, physical/emotional development) by producing healthy adults.

I think your framing of this as a "Western" bias towards relationships between adults and children is neither helpful nor indeed accurate to understanding the issue at all. Call me naive perhaps, but I'm not sure many Cambodian parents would be particularly pleased if they knew their child had "consented" to be anally penetrated by some guy next door them. :roll:
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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:07 pm

The significance given to sexual activity is very much cultural in origin. If it didn't exist there would be no emotional harm to children regardless of age. In essence rape is just an assault (with a penis) if it could be viewed as just an assault a lot of the power rapist has would be taken away from them. Yes a young child's understanding of the world is not the same as an adult but to say they can't consent (I am talking simple yes/no consent not informed consent) eg. a child wants a toy they will make it perfectly clear, a child doesn't want to go to bed they make that clear to. If sex were in itself a meaningless or (nigh on meaningless) act the world would in my opinion be a better place. I doubt anyone is going to agree with me, as we are all conditioned from early childhood (eg. parent telling (or beating) a child not masturbate) with our culture (and many other cultures) irrational, destructive and stupid attitudes towards sex to such a point it is treated as an unquestionable fact.
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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby African_Prince » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:41 am

I responded to your entire post but I accidentally hit the back button and erased it all. It's been a pretty stressful day. I'm PISSED OFF but I will attempt to remember what I wrote in my previous reply.

You differentiate the physical from the emotional, there is no reason for the distinction, they are effectively the same in practice and have equal importance. Sex as the most physical of human of interactions is concurrently and consequently one its most emotional. By saying one has no effect on the other is plain Cartesian dualism, we cannot be halved between the mental and the sensual.


If by 'emotion' you are referring to physical pleasure, I would agree that there is an 'emotional' component to sex. There is also an 'emotional' component to eating or any other activity that causes pleasure/enjoyment. If by 'emotional' you mean the psychological baggage that most people associate with sex, the onus is on you to prove this and you cannot do so by making an 'appeal to common sense' argument . You cannot prove that other humans are sentient, let alone know what they feel during sex. If there was an inherent, emotional component to sex, we wouldn't be debating this, it would be universally understood in the same way that we universally agree (with the exception of people who cannot feel physical pain) that sawing off one's right arm would be painful.

Sex can be used to express affection or it can result in it but, in and of itself, it is a biological function, just like eating and sleeping are biological functions.

Children are not physically and therefore emotionally developed enough to decide for themselves what is most healthy, thats what childhood is, right? A responsible guardian would use physical force if necessary to stop a toddler sticking a fork into an electrical outlet.


First of all, there's nothing inherently "unhealthy" about sex. Sticking a fork into an electrical outlet can cause physically tangible damage, any distress that having safe, consensual sex might cause a child would come from that child's arbitrary and subjective interpretation of the event. In cultures where child-adult sex is the norm, children don't grow up "traumatized" by having had sex with adults as children because they were raised in a culture that conditions people to believe that child-adult sex is inherently exploitative or that sex is anything more than physically pleasurable activity.

Leaving aside the issue of whether or not we're morally obligated to regard children as our equals (in terms of moral value and worth, not intelligence, maturity, strength etc.) and to respect their self-autonomy, I still think child-adult sex can be justified even from a non-anarchist perspective.

For an adult to enter into such relations with someone who cannot give reasoned consent makes the engagement void and exploitative, one party has the the advantage over another in that they actually know what they are doing and are effectively imposing themselves given that no legitimate consent has been given.


All decisions are 'reasoned', even if a person's better judgement is lacking. Children don't have to be intellectually or emotionlly mature to consent to sex because you've yet to prove that it's anything more than physical contact. If you're going to prevent children from engaging in consensual, safe sex, you might as well prevent them from engaging in masturbation. Although one is more erotic than the other, they both result in the same thing - physical pleasure. You can't decide that consent is illegitimate, either someone fully consents to something without coercision or they don't. Whether you agree with their decision is irrelevant.

Identifying when the "age of reason" occurs is of course the tricky part


The 'age of reason' (at least from a non-anarchist point of view) might apply to drinking, driving, engaging in legal contracts etc. but sex is nothing more than physical contact. It is not inherently harmful or damaging.

indeed there is a broad scientific consensus that males usually only fully mentally mature in the mid-twenties :oops:


See above.

Adult will always have "authority" over children; in the sense I described what a child is.


It's not necessarily true that adults will always have authority over children but I've conceded that a loophole in my argument, in practice, is that many children view adults as authority figures and might feel coerced into having sex with them. If the arrangement were fully consensual, I see no reason why it should be considered wrong or inappropriate.

This is not a statist issue any more than gravity is a statist issue, its simply a matter of facts, not idealogies or prejuidices.



Your "facts" are a point of view, they aren't "true". This isn't a statist issue but it is an issue of authority and anarchists are anti-authority/hierarchy. When you violate a child's right to self-autonomy, you are exercising authority over them. Most people aren't full consistent with whatever world views or ideas they hold, anarchists are no different. The same argument you make for parental authority over children can be made by statists for state authority over citizens. Seatbelt laws have probably saved many lives but they're still a violation of self-autonomy. Banning junk food might lower obesity and improve Western health but it would still be a violation of self-autonomy, it would still be an exercise of authority over others.

For the reasons I mentioned, children are not equal to adults in this domain for simple physical circumstances; the adult was born earlier in time. If you think both are at the same emotional level then I assume you're in favour of children (as I defined them) being permitted to care for younger children themselves and even run their own family if they wish?



I've never claimed that children were our equals in terms of intelligence, strength, maturity etc., only that they are our equals in terms of moral value and worth. Because they are our equals in terms of value and worth, they deserve equal consideration and respect, that includes respecting their right to self-autonomy. Allowing children to raise other children is not an issue of self-autonomy because it involves the interests and well-being of other people.

There is such a thing as legitimate authority



No, there is not. Authority might sometimes be beneficial but it is never legitimate because there is no higher, 'objective' authority that can legitimize human authority. Power does not legitimize itself.

a teacher has certain power (in this case intellectual) over his students, but because it is legitimate, it is self-destructive i.e. the teacher's role is to eliminate his power by teaching his/her students everything they know.


A teacher's role is to guide a student's education. That in itself is not authoritarian (their disciplinary role can be), if someone knows something about computers that I don't, we can mutually agree for them to teach me.

By the same token, an adult's/parent's role is to elimate their authority (in this case experience, physical/emotional development) by producing healthy adults.


You don't use authority to eliminate authority anymore than you use hatred to eliminate hatred. I believe the healthiest style of parenting is one that stresses positive reinforcement and compassion and allows for individual freedom and experimentation. A parent's job is to explain to children what the consequences of having unprotected sex, doing drugs, not getting good grades etc. will be, not to punish them or indoctrinate them with their personal values.

I think your framing of this as a "Western" bias towards relationships between adults and children is neither helpful nor indeed accurate to understanding the issue at all. Call me naive perhaps, but I'm not sure many Cambodian parents would be particularly pleased if they knew their child had "consented" to be anally penetrated by some guy next door them. :roll:


Most people in the world have similar attitudes about sex.
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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby Guest » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:04 pm

Your moralism and name calling says it all.
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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby Zazaban » Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:16 pm

Variagil wrote:For my wife and his lesbian lover, paedophylia is a bisness, like any other bisness, both of them enjoy being degradated by never more pronounciable words. This degradation of moral has no name. Capitalist.

I don't think you understand what pedophilia is.
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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:12 pm

If by 'emotion' you are referring to physical pleasure, I would agree that there is an 'emotional' component to sex. There is also an 'emotional' component to eating or any other activity that causes pleasure/enjoyment. If by 'emotional' you mean the psychological baggage that most people associate with sex, the onus is on you to prove this and you cannot do so by making an 'appeal to common sense' argument . You cannot prove that other humans are sentient, let alone know what they feel during sex. If there was an inherent, emotional component to sex, we wouldn't be debating this, it would be universally understood in the same way that we universally agree (with the exception of people who cannot feel physical pain) that sawing off one's right arm would be painful.

Sex can be used to express affection or it can result in it but, in and of itself, it is a biological function, just like eating and sleeping are biological functions.


You seem to be pursuing exactly what I said, some form of archaic Cartesian dualism. Yes, I do believe sex normally does carry psychological baggage, and there other are sentient beings "out there". You're quite right to call it common sense arguments, its exactly what the empiricist philosophers reacting against cartesianism called themselves.
To take your example, your analogy was misused, we're not talking about pleasure/pain but emotion. If someone's leg is sawn off, are you seriously saying they will carry no psychological baggage from that act?

First of all, there's nothing inherently "unhealthy" about sex. Sticking a fork into an electrical outlet can cause physically tangible damage, any distress that having safe, consensual sex might cause a child would come from that child's arbitrary and subjective interpretation of the event. In cultures where child-adult sex is the norm, children don't grow up "traumatized" by having had sex with adults as children because they were raised in a culture that conditions people to believe that child-adult sex is inherently exploitative or that sex is anything more than physically pleasurable activity.


Did I say there was anything "unhealthy" about sex?
Just because the distress-which you admit could be caused by the sexual act- is subjective then its somehow less relevant?
You asked me before to prove what people feel during sex and now you assert that all people from these cultures-whichever ones they are- are fine with having sex as children.
I'm sure there are women who don't feel exploited or degraded, living in patriarchal societies, indeed in our culture I'm sure many women think in fact our culture is not actually patriarchal at all. They're wrong of course, and this false consciousness is quite easy to engender, even if one accepts it, I don't think your argument, given how easy it is to manipulate people's thought in society is particularly convincing or even says very much.


All decisions are 'reasoned', even if a person's better judgement is lacking. Children don't have to be intellectually or emotionlly mature to consent to sex because you've yet to prove that it's anything more than physical contact. If you're going to prevent children from engaging in consensual, safe sex, you might as well prevent them from engaging in masturbation. Although one is more erotic than the other, they both result in the same thing - physical pleasure. You can't decide that consent is illegitimate, either someone fully consents to something without coercision or they don't. Whether you agree with their decision is irrelevant.


You say I have to prove that sex is anything but physical, and anything is else you wave away as "cultural". Well, how did we acquire the culture then? You are really saying there is simply no interaction between emotion and sexual activity and that people that associate the two have simply been indoctrinated into the conflation?

I've never claimed that children were our equals in terms of intelligence, strength, maturity etc., only that they are our equals in terms of moral value and worth. Because they are our equals in terms of value and worth, they deserve equal consideration and respect, that includes respecting their right to self-autonomy. Allowing children to raise other children is not an issue of self-autonomy because it involves the interests and well-being of other people.


Children by their very nature cannot be fully self-autonomous because they cannot yet be held fully responosible for their actions due to the fact they cannot understand the full moral consequences. Just because they are equal in moral worth and value does not mean they can yet give their informed consent.
As I said, any consent from a child is void and exploitative because one party is not fully aware of the consequences of the act they are engaging in. One party is effectively imposing themselves on the other, its an extreme power trip, which of course in any relationship is dangerous.

No, there is not. Authority might sometimes be beneficial but it is never legitimate because there is no higher, 'objective' authority that can legitimize human authority. Power does not legitimize itself.


Why exactly do you need some higher, something "objective" to prove legitimacy again?

A teacher's role is to guide a student's education. That in itself is not authoritarian (their disciplinary role can be), if someone knows something about computers that I don't, we can mutually agree for them to teach me.


The knowledge they have that you don't is power in itself. Is this illegitimate or not?

You don't use authority to eliminate authority anymore than you use hatred to eliminate hatred. I believe the healthiest style of parenting is one that stresses positive reinforcement and compassion and allows for individual freedom and experimentation. A parent's job is to explain to children what the consequences of having unprotected sex, doing drugs, not getting good grades etc. will be, not to punish them or indoctrinate them with their personal values.


Did I say anything about "using" authority? Adults find themselves in a position of authority to children due to the accident of being born before them. Can hatred of racism help to eliminate race hatred?
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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby African_Prince » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:55 pm

I could go into an in-depth discussion refuting the notion that child-adult sex is inherently harmful but whether or not it is or isn't is actually irrelevant. A consistent anarchist would realize that they are not morally entitled to make decisions on behalf of other humans. You can strongly disagree with a child having consensual sex with an adult but it remains their decision to make. You don't have a right to make decisions on my behalf even if you really do have better judgement than I do and even if doing so might actually be in my best, long-term interests. Anti-consensual, pedo-sex anarchists are using the basic argument for the very existence of states, 'their authority is necessary for the good of society as a whole'.

Consistent anarchists are as opposed to adultism as they are to heterosexism, racism, speciesism, sexism and all other forms of hierarchical discrimination.
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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby Gruph » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:17 pm

African_Prince wrote:Consistent anarchists are as opposed to adultism as they are to heterosexism, racism, speciesism, sexism and all other forms of hierarchical discrimination.


Except that "adultism," as you've framed it here, is entirely different from those other things. Young children are not equipped to consent to sex.

Suppose an advanced alien species visits Earth and asks us if we want to participate in their customs, which we're incapable of grasping fully. Suppose we're excited by these strange new activities, so we agree; is our "consent" legitimate? I don't think so.

A young child might "consent" to sex because they're intrigued by it, or they want to please the adult, or whatever, but they can't comprehend the ramification of what they're doing.
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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby African_Prince » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:33 pm

Gruph wrote:
Except that "adultism," as you've framed it here, is entirely different from those other things. Young children are not equipped to consent to sex.

Suppose an advanced alien species visits Earth and asks us if we want to participate in their customs, which we're incapable of grasping fully. Suppose we're excited by these strange new activities, so we agree; is our "consent" legitimate? I don't think so.

A young child might "consent" to sex because they're intrigued by it, or they want to please the adult, or whatever, but they can't comprehend the ramification of what they're doing.


I was fully aware of what sex was when I was 7 years old. I fantasized about it often. This is a cop-out.

If a child initiates or agrees to sex with an adult, how can someone who is opposed to authority and for individual freedom violate that child's autonomy? Sex is not a 'custom', it is a physical act. Without getting into details (and by 'sex' I'm including non-penetrative, sexual contact), the procedure is fairly simply.

What is the "ramification" by the way, if not STI's since we're talking about protected, safe sex? The "ramifications" are dependent on interpretation which is influenced by societal and cultural attitudes about sex, they're not inherent.
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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby Gruph » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:37 pm

I used to fantasize about it, too. I remember talking with my friends on the elementary school playground about which girls we wanted to "fuck." Guess what? I didn't know the first damned thing about sex at that age, and neither did you.
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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby Zazaban » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:52 pm

I wouldn't object to children having sex with other children, I suppose. Neither has any advantage over the other.
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Re: Paedophilia (On Consent Generally)

Postby Gruph » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:08 pm

Zazaban wrote:I wouldn't object to children having sex with other children, I suppose. Neither has any advantage over the other.


And I'd agree with that sentiment. I can't accept adult-child sex, because it's inherently exploitative -- even if the child "consents" -- just like capitalism; but I'm willing to discuss child-child sex.

Saying "I'm willing to discuss it" may sound authoritarian, but so be it: the role of adults is to protect children and teach them how to navigate the perils of the real world. Little kids don't fully grasp sex, so they should be taught about it. I'm all for openness there. There's nothing to hide about sex, but it does have its perils.

By African_Prince's reckoning, we should allow Alzheimer's sufferers to wander onto the highway rather than get all authoritarian on their asses and restrain them. I say that those of us who possess fully-developed & intact faculties have a moral obligation to look out for those who do not -- even if that means becoming a benevolent dictator and telling them what they can and cannot do. Within reason, and for their own safety, of course. These things are not black and white. It's juvenile to say that it's always wrong to control others. We have to be very careful about it, that's all. Unless of course we want to be shoveling toddlers and elderly people from the pavement.

I can't wait to be told that I'm using Dubya's reasoning on invading Iraq "to protect America." :roll:
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