Anarchy is Godliness

[Alex]

I am surprised at how many anarchists seem to have fallen for, passionately, the mainstream MTV creeds of agnosticism and atheism.

God is central to anarchism.

The pioneres of anarchism were largley devout, if not fanatical, Christians. Anarchism also has strong connections with Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism.

Why are so many anarchists preaching the Godless dogmas of capitalism?


The kingdom of God is within you.

- Tolstoy

[Zazaban]

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for the existence of god, and the idea of atheism being a creation of MTV is laughable to insane. Most historical anarchists were atheists, Tolstoy being one of the rare exception.. Frankly, belief in god is borderline lunacy.

[Alex]

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for the existence of god,

Okay.

Do you exist?

and the idea of atheism being a creation of MTV is laughable to insane.

MTV is one of the propaganda tools of the state. It is to the state's advantage that no independent community should challenge its authority. You have heard of the separation of Church and state. In fact, the state is taking over, the Church and independent communities are almost finished, and the state nearly controls everything. Being anti-religion means being pro-state. Not that religion and God have much to do with one-another necessarily.

Maybe this thread should be moved to Marginalisation Consciousness Index? it has probably gotten that far.

Most historical anarchists were atheists, Tolstoy being one of the rare exception.. Frankly, belief in god is borderline lunacy.

History. His story: The Man's.

Adin Ballou (1803–1890) was founder of the Hopedale Community in what is now Hopedale, Massachusetts, and a prominent 19th century exponent of pacifism, socialism and abolitionism. Through his long career as a Unitarian minister, he tirelessly sought social reform through his radical Christian and socialist views. Tolstoy was heavily influenced by his writings.

Henry David Thoreau (1817–1862) was an American author, pacifist, nature lover, tax resister and individualist anarchist. He was an advocate of civil disobedience and a lifelong abolitionist. Though not commonly regarded as a Christian anarchist, his essay Civil Disobedience does include many of the Christian anarchist ideals.

William B. Greene (1819–1878), an individualist anarchist based in the United States, was a Unitarian minister, and the originator of a Christian Mutualism, which he considered a new dispensation, beyond God’s covenant with Abraham. His 1850 Mutual Banking begins with a discussion (drawn from the work of Pierre Leroux) of the Christian rite of communion as a model for a society based in equality, and ends with a prophetic invocation of the new Mutualist dispensation. His better-known scheme for mutual banking, and his criticisms of usury should be understood in this specifically religious context. Unlike his contemporaries among the nonresistants, Greene was not a pacifist, and served as a Union Army colonel in the American Civil War.

Leo Tolstoy (1828–1910) wrote extensively on his anarchist principles, which he arrived at via his Christian faith, in his books The Kingdom of God is Within You, What I Believe (aka My Religion), The Law of Love and the Law of Violence, and Christianity and Patriotism which criticised government and the Church in general. He called for a society based on compassion, nonviolent principles and freedom. Tolstoy was a pacifist and a vegetarian. His vision for an equitable society was an anarchist version of Georgism, which he mentions specifically in his novel Resurrection.

Nikolai Berdyaev (1874–1948), the Orthodox Christian philosopher has been called the philosopher of freedom and is known as a Christian existentialist. Known for writing "the Kingdom of God is anarchy" he believed that freedom ultimately comes from God, in direct opposition to anarchists such as Mikhail Bakunin, who saw God as the enslaver of humanity (symbolically; Bakunin was an atheist). Christian anarchists claim Man enslaves Man, not God.

Léonce Crenier (1888–1963) first rejected religion, becoming an anarcho-communist when he moved to Paris from rural France in 1911. In 1913 he visited his sister in Portugal where he stayed for several years. During this period he suffered a debilitating and agonising illness. Receiving the attentions of a particularly caring nurse, he survived, despite the gloomy predictions of the doctors. Converting to Catholicism, he became a monk. He is particularly known for his concept of precarity, and was influential on Dorothy Day.

Ammon Hennacy (1893–1970) wrote extensively on his work with the Catholic Workers, the IWW, and at the Joe Hill House of Hospitality. He was a practicing anarchist, draft dodger, vegetarian, and tax resister. He also tried to reduce his tax liability by taking up a lifestyle of simple living and bartering. His autobiography The Book of Ammon describes his work in nonviolent, anarchist, social action, and provides insight into the lives of Christian anarchists in the United States of the 20th century. His other books are One Man Revolution in America and The Autobiography of a Catholic Anarchist.

Dorothy Day (1897–1980) was a journalist turned social activist (she was a member of the Industrial Workers of the World) and devout member of the Roman Catholic Church. She became known for her social justice campaigns in defense of the poor, forsaken, hungry and homeless. Alongside Peter Maurin, she founded the Catholic Worker Movement in 1933, espousing nonviolence, and hospitality for the impoverished and downtrodden. Dorothy Day was declared Servant of God when a cause for sainthood was opened for her by Pope John Paul II.

Jacques Ellul (1912–1994) was a French thinker, sociologist, theologian and Christian anarchist. He wrote several books against the "technological society", and some about Christianity and politics, like Anarchy and Christianity (1991) asserting that anarchism and Christianity are socially following the same goal.

Thomas J. Hagerty was a Catholic priest from New Mexico, USA, and one of the founding members of the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW). Hagerty is credited with writing the IWW Preamble, assisting in the composition of the Industrial Union Manifesto and drawing up the first chart of industrial organization. He was ordained in 1892 but his formal association with the church ended when he was suspended by his archbishop for urging miners in Colorado to revolt during his tour of mining camps in 1903. Hagerty is not commonly regarded as a Christian anarchist in the Tolstoyan tradition but rather an anarcho-syndicalist. Christian anarchists like Dorothy Day and Ammon Hennacy have been members of the Industrial Workers of the World and found common cause with the axiom "an injury to one is an injury to all."

Philip Berrigan was an internationally renowned peace activist and Roman Catholic priest. He and his brother Daniel Berrigan were on the FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives list for illegal nonviolent actions against war.

Ivan Illich was a libertarian-socialist social thinker, with roots in the Catholic Church, who wrote critiques of technology, energy use and compulsory education. In 1961 Illich founded the Centro Intercultural de Documentación (CIDOC) at Cuernavaca in Mexico, in order to "counterfoil" the Vatican's participation in the "modern development" of the so-called Third World. Illich's books Energy and Equity and Tools for Conviviality are considered classics for social ecologists interested in appropriate technology, while his book Deschooling Society is still revered by activists seeking alternatives to compulsory schooling. Ivan's view on Jesus as an anarchist is highlighted here.

Vernard Eller is a member of the Church of the Brethren and author of Christian Anarchy: Jesus' Primacy Over the Powers (1987).

Tripp York is a Mennonite theologian whose work centers specifically around the implications of an anarchistic Christianity. His book The Purple Crown: The Politics of Martyrdom advocates for an anarchistic witness predicated on the martyrs. His book Living on Hope While Living in Babylon: The Christian Anarchists of the 20th Century details key Christian anarchists in the 20th century in relation to the political philosophy of anarchism as well as Martin Luther King, Jr's triple axis of evil (materialism, racism, and militarism). His novella Anesthesia: A Brief Reflection on Contemporary Aesthetics explores the romanticized accounts of love moderns imbibe and its collusion with death.

Fyodor Dostoevsky in many respects can be considered to have believed in Christian anarchism/autonomy. His greatest novel The Brothers Karamazov postulates the idea that all men should be monks and that everyone is responsible for everyone else. Also, that belief in God can only be found through the practice of active love.

This to be followed by a more particular thread for study of Islamic Anarchism.

[Francois Tremblay]

I am surprised at how many anarchists seem to have fallen for, passionately, the mainstream MTV creeds of agnosticism and atheism.

What an idiotic thing to say. Atheism is not "cool." Even in this day and age atheists are still getting persecuted, even in the US.

Atheism is not a worldview. All it is, is a denial of the "God" fairy tales. That's all it is. Just a sign that you're not completely batshit insane and have caved into believing in fairies in the sky that whish their magic wands and pop the universe out of nothing.

God is central to anarchism.

No, God is the antithesis of Anarchism. God is the ultimate unjust authority. God is THE Ultimate Archy.

And don't bring me Tolstoy in reply: Tolstoy was not a Christian, no matter how hard you try to shoehorn his very personal beliefs into an issue on organized religion issue.

[Yarrow]

Why are so many anarchists preaching the Godless dogmas of capitalism?

qe?

i don't believe in a god because I have seen no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise. When people tell me it's about faith, i tell them it works the same with dragons.
Dawkins once said a statement that cannot be disproved by any theoretical evidence is not really asserting anything. Is there anything you could think of that might possibly occur to make you doubt the existence of a god?

[leadhead]

I am surprised at how many anarchists seem to have fallen for, passionately, the mainstream MTV creeds of agnosticism and atheism.

God is central to anarchism.

The pioneres of anarchism were largley devout, if not fanatical, Christians. Anarchism also has strong connections with Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism.

Why are so many anarchists preaching the Godless dogmas of capitalism?


The kingdom of God is within you.

- Tolstoy

Because I know history. Religion's role in it is synonymous with submission, control and mass murder not to mention erasing huge sections of our human history (Thanks Christianity for the Library of Alexandria and Central/South American history).

[Alex]

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for the existence of god. Frankly, belief in god is borderline lunacy.

What an idiotic thing to say.

All it is, is a denial of the "God" fairy tales. Just a sign that you're not completely batshit insane

i don't believe in a god because I have seen no evidence,

Religion's role in it is synonymous with submission, control and mass murder

Broad spectrum of opinion represented here! Did someone say anarchists were rebels? Unorthodox in their thinking? Why?



The most reviled character in the free-thinking world. More dangerous than a pedophile! The man of God!

Atheism is not "cool."

You're right, it isn't. It is profoundly shallow; as Versace remarked, "I love the superficiality": atheism is Cosmo's hottest fashion. (Barneys.)

Even in this day and age atheists are still getting persecuted, even in the US.

Quite the contrary. Though if you spend you time glued to mass-media, no doubt you get that impression. This was the vice-president of capitalism's marketing department, Richard Dawkins, propaganda line also in The God Delusion. But that he was able to site only one, tangentially related case made his presentation somewhat... unconvincing.

The Godly have always been an extreme minority in society. Out-numbered at all times by fools.

All it is, is a denial of the "God" fairy tales.

Which fairy tale is this? Can you give an example please. Perhaps you have misunderstood it's meaning.

Just a sign that you're not completely batshit insane and have caved into believing in fairies in the sky that whish their magic wands and pop the universe out of nothing.

Okay. The old, if you believe that, you are insane argument. Very powerful! Are you a psychologist? Can you site me some DSM iv codes for which illnesses you are meaning?

God is the ultimate unjust authority. God is THE Ultimate Archy.

Some say. The Muslims say: submit to no man -- submit only to God. They are a fiercely independent people, who despise submission and servitude -- and Americans. Where would you go to get out from the authority of God?

In the anarchist thinker and technology critic Ellul, we find the profound and mysterious line: "God is free. God is good. Man is free. Man is good."

And don't bring me Tolstoy in reply: Tolstoy was not a Christian, no matter how hard you try to shoehorn his very personal beliefs into an issue on organized religion issue.

This thread is really about God. Not religion: God's community.

i don't believe in a god because I have seen no evidence

And you never will. Evidence is an object: the very lowest and most unreal sort of being. God is the highest, and the most real.

Dawkins once said a statement that cannot be disproved by any theoretical evidence is not really asserting anything.

Dawkins has no depth and knows not of what he speaks. He is a PR rep for the big capitalists. You think publishing those books is cheap! It costs as much as a SuperBowl spot! (Or the Discovery Channel.)

The only statements that can be disproved by theory alone are those that contain invalid logic; which has little to do with evidence, which is usually considered physical and not theoretical. Can you please quote what line you think you are talking about?

Chapter 9 of God Delusion was however right on, he recognized that, unfairly, pedophiles are used as weapons against the Church. (By-the-way, this whole pedo-priest-scandal was invented by state media to distract attention from Native claims for national independence; and it worked: few North Americans could care less about the Native land they built their golf-courses on -- but they all hate God and pedophiles!)

Mass organized religion did a lot of bad things -- about three-hundred years ago. The capitalists are a little more dangerous these days, I'd say. The order of society has long since shifted from one based of Church-authority to one based on secular-capitalist authority. Sunday picnics, children's face painting, and charity -- those monsters!

The Godly and the religious are the outsiders now in the West. Mao said "support whatever the enemy opposes, and oppose whatever the enemy supports." See you at Church this Sunday.

The political argument is quite simple, the state-media assassination of religion is identical in form and function to that used against gangs. Gangs, like religious communities, stand up for their people, regardless of what the law or the state says. Gangs call them safe-houses; the Church uses 'sanctuary'. 'Gang-land-justice' the Church calls confession and repentance.

But the socio-political arguments are child's play.

Let's talk about God....

[Guest]

First of all, define "God." Is the capital G important here? Are we talking about Yahweh? I don't believe in Yahweh. If we're talking about something else, please explain. If we're talking about some nebulous concept of "the infinite unknown," then, OK, I believe in... that. But that's hardly an interesting statement.

The first step is defining terms. Why was this not done? Oversight? sneakiness? something else? Give me details so I can weigh in.

[Francois Tremblay]

Dawkins has no depth and knows not of what he speaks. He is a PR rep for the big capitalists.

Evidence is an object: the very lowest and most unreal sort of being.

You are a clown on drugs, honestly.

[leadhead]

Have you ever seen Star Trek....what was it? 3?

Anyways, Kirk's son was a scientist that built the genesis device. A device that could turn a whole moon into a life giving celestial body. The moon has all of this lush flora and fauna on it and its like the garden of eden and stuff. But the moon starts ripping itself appart...earthquakes and lava and the whole bit. At this point Kirk's son confesses to a vulcan lady (sorry not a big trekkie...I enjoy watching them, but I havent seen the movie in like 15 years) that he used PROTOMATTER to solve problems that would have taken decades to figure out when he was initially constructing the genesis device. The vulcan chick cannot believe it and she lecture him about how unstable PROTOMATTER is.

Now using conjecture when defining the world around you is fine as long as you have a solid platform of evidence to make a logical extention of thought.

God is protomatter! When you use god to explain or solve problems, what you are essentially doing is using protomatter to create the genesis device!

edit: That goes for ancient astronaughts, reptilian shapshifters and all that other new age bullshit sweeping the nation. It is the same goddamn snake oil salesman bullshit.

[Crustanarchy]

Atheism is far from mainstream. I think if you came to a Southern church and started saying the things you are you'd be welcomed with open arms. Even a Northern church. Any freakin' church. (I hate churches simply because they are a waste of resources, time, labor, and beauty because they are quite beautiful after all.)

Using your line of argument I can simply say "God doesn't exist", and you answer "How do you know?" or "Yes he does!". It's circular. I can't prove he doesn't exist, but I can logically conclude through evidence and education and simply living in reality that no all-powerful humanoid exists. You can call these pieces of evidence "creations of the evil capitalists" or whatever, but that just escapes the point of looking at the evidence and coming to a conclusion by yourself. On the flipside, you have absolutely nothing to turn to except your mind to prove this entity exists. There's no objective evidence at all.

Who cares about MTV? I don't watch it, don't try to either. I have the channel, I'm just not into that type of entertainment.

I don't care if Atheism is Cosmo's hottest fashion. You obviously do. I subscribe to Atheism because its the logical conclusion I come to after I look at all the collective evidence and experience I've had.

Who are the Godly? Some "pure" secret society waiting for apocalypse to come?

The fairy tale of Jewish enslavement by the Egyptians. The fairy tale of Jesus. The fairy tale of creation and the Garden of Eden. The fairy tale of Exodus. And the fairy tale of the Apocalypse. The Bible is a huge tome of fables, nothing more. Writing for and by human beings. Motives differ.

People who believe in God aren't insane they're simply ignorant and scared of the mysteries of life. So they put God right there. I don't see anything wrong with, if you want to be ignorant, that's your choice.

Muslim societies are quite restrictive. I would not want to be a modern-day Muslim living in the Occupied Territories of Palestine for example. Nor Afghanistan, nor Pakistan, not even Saudi Arabia. Oman, UAE... maybe. Al Jazeera is actually a decent news service.

Are you a mono-theist or a poly-theist? Are you a Christian? Are you a Zoroastrian?

The pedo-priest events are not a fabrication (wow if you really think that...). Just because they hurt the Church (FUCK THE FUCKING CHRUCH) doesn't mean it's fake. Many of the people in power are devout believers of God. (Don't know about all his doctrines though) I don't want a Church authority. I don't want a secular-capitalist authority. I want my authority over me. That's it.

I hate going to Church. Stupid assholes standing up with their arms out. What the fuck? Hearing the preacher drone on about the same thing. I felt like I was in a traphouse. I almost asked where the acid was.

I see no such state-media assassinations of religion. The media tends to leave religion alone or assumes everyone believes the same thing (people who watch it usually do). Are you calling the workings of ruthless gangs of youth like the Crips or the Gangster Disciples like religious communities? To me these gangs look more like a weak state-within-a-state.

But God is for children, let's talk about reality!

[Alex]

First of all, define "God." Is the capital G important here? Are we talking about Yahweh? I don't believe in Yahweh. If we're talking about something else, please explain. If we're talking about some nebulous concept of "the infinite unknown," then, OK, I believe in... that.

The first step is defining terms. Why was this not done? Oversight? sneakiness? something else? Give me details so I can weigh in.

Define God?

Is this impossibility similar to the impossibility of defining anarchism? If so, how? If not, why not?

Take it as you have received it. Nature, nothing, etc.

Do you exist?

Now using conjecture when defining the world around you is fine as long as you have a solid platform of evidence to make a logical extention of thought.

God is protomatter! When you use god to explain or solve problems, what you are essentially doing is using protomatter to create the genesis device!

"PROTOMATTER" is abductive reasoning. AKA Post hoc ergo propter hoc. The fallacy: what causes precedes, or: generally the bigger contains the smaller. "PROTOMATTER" is the root binary for anarchism: the first master-slave relationship on Earth. It seems this "PROTOMATTER" is a necessary structure of all thoughts, and utterances: word-order typology. An abductive critique would, I think, be sympathetic to anarchism, as a way out of basic-level authority molarizations. Or if not out, an impossible mortal attempt at a God's-eye-view. But this is subtle and requires much more reflection on my part yet.

Thoughts?

You are a clown on drugs, honestly.

[Alex]

(I hate churches simply because they are a waste of resources, time, labor, and beauty because they are quite beautiful after all.)

Because you do not appreciate that everything is a total waste. You think, and hold values, in capitalist terms: "resources", "labor".

Using your line of argument I can simply say "God doesn't exist", and you answer "How do you know?" or "Yes he does!". It's circular. I can't prove he doesn't exist, but I can logically conclude through evidence and education and simply living in reality that no all-powerful humanoid exists.

There is no evidence for God. Logic is useless. The proof is searingly self-evident.

"All that you have seen is God." (Sophocles.)

you have absolutely nothing to turn to except your mind to prove this entity exists. There's no objective evidence at all.

You have absolutely nothing to turn to except your mind to prove this entity exists. There's no objective evidence at all.

God is not an object. So there is no objective evidence.

Do you exist? Therefore God exists.

Or, if you must have a causal argument: Are you the foundation or sustaining of your own existence? Is it by your will that you wake from sound sleep?

You need a basic lesson in metaphysics, you are living in "the cave". (Plato.)

Living things have an interiority. Non-living things do not. Or rather, non-living things have only an exteriority.

What?

We are trying to talk about three things, but with a binary language.

There are three levels of reality.

1. The world of pots and pans, atoms, stars, etc.

2. The mind, the visual canvas, ideas, pain and fear, etc.

3. Noumenal reality. Mind is presumably just a very small part of this reality. It is the interiority of objects -- or rather, the interiority of mind.

I don't care if Atheism is Cosmo's hottest fashion. You obviously do. I subscribe to Atheism because its the logical conclusion I come to after I look at all the collective evidence and experience I've had.

Yes. You are a practical, logical, and rational person. A simpleton who lives in an illusion. You have no experience with reality and with God.

Who are the Godly? Some "pure" secret society waiting for apocalypse to come?

It takes one to know one.

The fairy tale of Jewish enslavement by the Egyptians. The fairy tale of Jesus. The fairy tale of creation and the Garden of Eden. The fairy tale of Exodus. And the fairy tale of the Apocalypse. The Bible is a huge tome of fables, nothing more. Writing for and by human beings. Motives differ.

Because God and the God-experience are beyond (or prior to?) words and exposition: it is always necessary to talk about God with symbols, arrows that point to. These symbols are magical, and if meditated on, they conjure up the spirit world.

Choose one, I don't have five-hundred years to explain to you every symbol in Christian iconology.

People who believe in God aren't insane they're simply ignorant and scared of the mysteries of life.

Yes.

"The fool sayeth in his heart that there is no God."

"Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

You have no idea all the truths you speak, because you do not understand the symbolic language. If you had no experience with 'horse', you would also not know what I was meaning.

Muslim societies are quite restrictive. I would not want to be a modern-day Muslim living in the Occupied Territories of Palestine for example. Nor Afghanistan, nor Pakistan, not even Saudi Arabia. Oman, UAE... maybe. Al Jazeera is actually a decent news service.

Thanks for the latest War on Muslims propaganda. Al Jazeera is a tool of the Godless capitalists, function: to incorporate and secularize Islam.

The pedo-priest events are not a fabrication (wow if you really think that...). Just because they hurt the Church (FUCK THE FUCKING CHRUCH) doesn't mean it's fake.

Sex has always been used as a weapon of war. In this case against the American Indian nations. The church was scapegoated for what was a state action, colonialism, keep the majority opinion ignorant that Australia and Canada = South Africa.

I hate going to Church. Stupid assholes standing up with their arms out. What the fuck? Hearing the preacher drone on about the same thing. I felt like I was in a traphouse. I almost asked where the acid was.

You ought to have, then you would understand this.

I see no such state-media assassinations of religion. The media tends to leave religion alone or assumes everyone believes the same thing (people who watch it usually do).

Did you notice the war to take religion out of schools? Public place? The endless stereotyped characters of 'religious' people in every medium of the media?

Are you calling the workings of ruthless gangs of youth like the Crips or the Gangster Disciples like religious communities? To me these gangs look more like a weak state-within-a-state.

These may be real bad gangs. Usually the state media uses the gang label on political opponents and other 'undesirables': such as young people in general, natives, Blacks, foreigners...

[Zazaban]

Ah, one of the anti-rationality types. This makes for good entertainment.

[Alex]

Ah, one of the anti-rationality types. This makes for good entertainment.