Nationalism *is* compatible with anarchism

[African_Prince]

I see no reason why ethnic nationalism should not be considered compatible with anarchism and I consider myself to be both an anarcho-communist and an African nationalist. I can't understand why some anarchists claim that ethnic nationalism contradicts anarchist principles (remember a 'nation' can refer to a group of people with a shared heritage, culture, way of life etc., it doesn't necessarily refer to legal nation-states). It's civic nationalism that consistent anarchists are universally opposed to. One of the basic principles of anarchism is mind your own business, let other people do what they think is appropriate so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others in any way. If communities of White nationalists (for example) want to form their own self-determining, separate societies with little to no contact with the non-White world, let them.



http://www.folkandfaith.com/articles/anarchy.shtml

[thelastindividual]

The issue I have with this is that cultures have become so mixed that in almost every instance in order to bring a community down to a single race would involve evicting someone who did not actually wanted to move

Not to mention my critique of 'anarcho'-capitalism in that it is largely ahistorical and ignores the massive amount of political theory and activism that has built up around the term 'anarchism'. It can only be called anarchism under a loose dictionary definition of the term

mind your own business, let other people do what they think is appropriate so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others in any way

See that's not actually anarchism. That sounds much more like voluntarism. Anarchism is a much broader theory than that. Like |Y| said we need to discount all the theories that have a possibility of leading back to where we are now. We can't just sit back passively and allow 'voluntary' capitalism or 'voluntary' monarchism or 'voluntary' nationalims

Also most of the people who self-describe as 'nationalist' in my experience also tend to be hostile towards other races

Call me a reactionary but the day I start co-operating with self-described 'race-realists' or 'nationalists' is the day I admit that maybe, just maybe, Murray Rothbard had a point

[Zazaban]

I would argue that ancaps should probably be allowed to have tiny, enclosed communities dotted about sort of like how extreme religious minorities do now. This is because I can't see 100% of humanity immediately rejecting capitalism. For a few generations there will still be stubborn types.

[thelastindividual]

I would argue that ancaps should probably be allowed to have tiny, enclosed communities dotted about sort of like how extreme religious minorities do now. This is because I can't see 100% of humanity immediately rejecting capitalism. For a few generations there will still be stubborn types.

That was sort of my thinking. Let them all have their own little patches of land and lay back and watch the walls come crashing down

Just because I think they should be allowed to achieve their ends at least on a small scale it doesn't mean I'm going to affiliate with them or join them in any kind of protests any time soon

[Zazaban]

I usually go with a panarchist approach of having multiple economic systems working in the same geographic area but with different groups of people, but I really can't see ancapism working in that situation because the tend to believe that property rights are some holy god-given inviolable perfection, and would refuse to recognize the legitimacy of any other system. Thus, problems of them attempting to enforce their views on others would arise.

[jack]

I see no reason why ethnic nationalism should not be considered compatible with anarchism and I consider myself to be both an anarcho-communist and an African nationalist. I can't understand why some anarchists claim that ethnic nationalism contradicts anarchist principles (remember a 'nation' can refer to a group of people with a shared heritage, culture, way of life etc., it doesn't necessarily refer to legal nation-states). It's civic nationalism that consistent anarchists are universally opposed to. One of the basic principles of anarchism is mind your own business, let other people do what they think is appropriate so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others in any way. If communities of White nationalists (for example) want to form their own self-determining, separate societies with little to no contact with the non-White world, let them.



http://www.folkandfaith.com/articles/anarchy.shtml

You just linked to a neo-nazi website, they wouldn't like you around there.

ANY kind of nationalism is incompatible with anarchism. Ethnic nationalism is built upon feelings that your race is superior to other races, or should be perserved from race-mixing or other things like it. Any form of nationalism is supremacist. Nationalism is anti-working class, it divides the working class instead of united us against our common enemy. It is racism hands down.

You can't be any form of nationalist and call yourself an anarchist. Anarchism is, and always has been, internationalist.

[jack]

Anyways, if you want to be an ethnic nationalist and seperate yourself from white society, then get the fuck off the internet because most people on here are white.

[patrickhenry]

I see nothing wrong in taking pride in your lands and culture. I myself see the beauty in different cultures and languages. What I can't except is the exclusion of others and the notion of superiority over another culture. I agree the world would be boring without the diversity but we can do without the hatred. For example I live in a community that has everything from blacks,whites, hispanics,africans,indians etc..etc.. I truely enjoy the vast diversity here. Similarity is fucking boring.

[African_Prince]

Anarchism is a much broader theory than that.

Yes but anarchism involves individual liberty, capitalism is inherently exploitative which contradicts the idea of individual liberty. Nationalism and/or seperatism does not contradict the idea of individual liberty. I agree that forcefully evicting people from geographical areas would be unarchanist, I do not recognize human ownership of land any more than I recognize human ownership of air.

ANY kind of nationalism is incompatible with anarchism

This is such nonsense, I can't understand how you can possibly think this. Anarchists are universally opposed to all forms of authority and hierarchy, that is all. As long as anarcho-nationalists do not advocate the dominance of one group of people over another or anything like genocide, slavery, colonialism etc., nationalism and anarchism are two separate issues.

Ethnic nationalism is built upon feelings that your race is superior to other races, or should be perserved from race-mixing or other things like it.

There is no canonical, universal doctrine of ethnic nationalism. Some ethnic nationalists feel that their group is superior to others, I agree that this is unanarchist. My ethnic nationalism is based on two principles : 1) African unity and 2) African self-determination. As for race-mixing, who an individual reproduces with is a personal matter (as is who they socialize with, live amongst, exhange goods and services with or generally interact with, you seem to think otherwise). I can say that I personally wouldn't date or marry interracially but I have no desire to prevent other people from doing so.

Any form of nationalism is supremacist.

No, it just isn't. It amazes me that you seriously think this. Just because you like the idea of anarchists sharing your view point on completely non-anarchism based issues doesn't make your argument any more intelligent. Tell me, what should be my favorite number, as an anarchist? Can I call myself an anarchist and eat hummus? I'm personally against free market enterprise and the existence of currency but I wouldn't deny that mutualists are anarchists. Nationalism is based on a love and devotion to one's social group, it is simply the idea that all members of a given group belong to one nation and should co-operate with one another as such.

Nationalism is anti-working class

No, it is not. There are a million and one different nationalist view points. For example, Steve Biko was a Black nationalist who did not advocate racial separatism (one of his closest friends was White), he only advocated Black consciousness and self-determination as a means of countering White oppression during South African apartheid. The Nation of Islam, on the other hand, advocates (or advocated) a seperate Black nation-state in the American South where Blacks would have little contact with Whites. The Nation of Islam has historically advocated that all Whites are devils whereas Marcus Garvey was sympathetic to the struggles of Irish people.

it divides the working class instead of united us against our common enemy. It is racism hands down.

Capitalists are not my "enemies" and neither are individual authority figures. It's their position of authority that I disagree with. Every worker is not a comrade, many of them have no allegiance to you whatsoever and would exploit other workers in a heart beat if they had the opportunity to do so.

You can't be any form of nationalist and call yourself an anarchist.

Of course you can, you simply have not presented any valid argment as to why someone can't be both an anarchist and a nationalist at the same time. You can't be an anarchist and a capitalist at the same time because capitalism is fundamentally hierarchical and exploitative. There's nothing about nationalism that necessarily advocates authority and hierarchy, whether you like the idea of a nationalist being an anarchist or not. The same people who criticize anarcho-nationalists are the same hypocrites who justify expressing authority over children, go figure ("but, but, that's different").

Anarchism is, and always has been, internationalist.

No, anarchism is and always has been anti-state and thus, anti-'national' borders. A country is a geographical area, a state is a government but a 'nation' is just a group of people who share a common heritage, culture or way or life.

Ironically, Prodhoun and Bakunin were both anti-Semites. I'm not anti-White, anti-Arab, anti-Japanese or anti-any other ethnic or racial group on the planet. I just love African people and feel an especial solidarity with them.

As for the existence of "anarcho" capitalist communities in a stateless world, I predict that such communities would disintegrate because no one in their right mind wants to live in a society wth unbridled capitalism. Without social welfare benefits, poverty and class inequality would be even worse than they are now but police protection would be privatized. Public school would be privatized as would a lot of the things we take for granted, like parks. If lower-class, exploited workers have the option of moving to communist (or collectivist and mutualist) communities, I think they would. Without society's underdogs to do the undesirable jobs that rich, capitalist, fat cats don't want to do, the system would fall apart. Feel free to criticize this but I think such an extremely capitalist society would be hell on Earth.

[patrickhenry]

As for the existence of "anarcho" capitalist communities in a stateless world, I predict that such communities would disintegrate because no one in their right mind wants to live in a society wth unbridled capitalism. Without social welfare benefits, poverty and class inequality would be even worse than they are now but police protection would be privatized. Public school would be privatized as would a lot of the things we take for granted, like parks. If lower-class, exploited workers have the option of moving to communist (or collectivist and muualist) communities, I think they would. Without societie's underdogs to do he undesirable jobs that rich, capitalist, fat cats won't want to do, the system would fall apart. Fee free to criticize this but I think such an extremely capitalist society would be hell on Earth.

Dude! I totally AGREE with you on this quote!

[patrickhenry]

Capitalists are not my "enemies" and neither are individual authority figures. It's their position of authority that I disagree with. Every worker is not a comrade, many of them have no allegiance to you whatsoever and would exploit other workers in a heart beat if they had the opportunity to do so.

I DISAGREE with this quote How many anarchists have you worked with NOT in a capitalist system? Look at the bigger picture. Exploitation only occurs because someone wants what you have. why? because the capitalist society says so.

[African_Prince]

Capitalists are not my "enemies" and neither are individual authority figures. It's their position of authority that I disagree with. Every worker is not a comrade, many of them have no allegiance to you whatsoever and would exploit other workers in a heart beat if they had the opportunity to do so.

I DISAGREE with this quote How many anarchists have you worked with NOT in a capitalist system? Look at the bigger picture. Exploitation only occurs because someone wants what you have. why? because the capitalist society says so.

I'm not sure what you disagree with (or what you're trying to say). I'm against capitalism, I just don't dislike or hate individual capitalists. Most of them are just trying to survive, like workers are.

I don't think I've ever met another anarchist. I wouldn't have high expectations, since most 'anarchists' seem to think that authority is 'sometimes necessary'.

[patrickhenry]

I don't think I've ever met another anarchist. I wouldn't have high expectations, since most 'anarchists' seem to think that authority is 'sometimes necessary'.

If never working with one or meeting one. How can you assume that they would exploit you or stab you in the back? hell ya capitalsts are trying to survive by climbing over the bodies of their wage slaves! they are your enemy MR.AFRICAN PRINCE! You of all people should know this! Look at how africa has been exploited through history! come on! wake the hell up

[African_Prince]

I don't think I've ever met another anarchist. I wouldn't have high expectations, since most 'anarchists' seem to think that authority is 'sometimes necessary'.

If never working with one or meeting one. How can you assume that they would exploit you or stab you in the back? hell ya capitalsts are trying to survive by climbing over the bodies of their wage slaves! they are your enemy MR.AFRICAN PRINCE! You of all people should know this! Look at how africa has been exploited through history! come on! wake the hell up

While I don't like my boss, I cannot bring myself to think of him as an evil, capitalist 'pig'. He's just a small business owner trying to make money like everyone else. Capitalists are just individuals, I don't accept the mystical, dogmatic 'us against them' rhetoric of some Marxists.

I said that every worker is not a 'comrade', I never said I assumed that any worker would exploit me or stab me in the back. Why do you not think there are several capitalists who themselves used to work for other people? As for solidarity with other anarchists, I think it's naive to assume that someone will share your position on any stance because they do on any other. Not all anarchists are vegans, for example, even though it would be consistent for anarchists to reject human authority and dominance over non-human animals.

[Zazaban]

As for the existence of "anarcho" capitalist communities in a stateless world, I predict that such communities would disintegrate because no one in their right mind wants to live in a society wth unbridled capitalism. Without social welfare benefits, poverty and class inequality would be even worse than they are now but police protection would be privatized. Public school would be privatized as would a lot of the things we take for granted, like parks. If lower-class, exploited workers have the option of moving to communist (or collectivist and mutualist) communities, I think they would. Without society's underdogs to do the undesirable jobs that rich, capitalist, fat cats don't want to do, the system would fall apart. Feel free to criticize this but I think such an extremely capitalist society would be hell on Earth.

I agree, but I'm not going to attempt to stop fanatics from trying. Yes, it would disintegrate, thus proving how much their society sucks once and for all.