I'm almost tempted

[Noleaders]

Surely pacifism is a contradiction in terms.

Its immoral to use violence

ok

So we wont stop people being violent by violent means even if its the only available method

It is not only immoral to initiate acts of violence towards other sentient beings

Maybe, but what about self defence?

[African_Prince]

Morals are lies, they don't exist and are only used by religions to justify their backwardness.

Empathy/compassion is what would keep an anarchist society from descending into chaos, as so many anti-anarchists claim it would.

They themselves know they have a position of authority, which they practice in knowing full well they are bleeding the working class dry.

Most people assume that authority and capitalism are both necessary and appropriate, it's the "common sense" view. They don't know any better. I'm not a bully, I don't want to hurt other people.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKING RAGING OVER HERE. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU ON!?!?!?! Capitalists make their living OFF OUR FUCKING BACKS AND THEY KNOW IT, that's like saying a slave owner can be a good person, he just doesn't understand the system he contributes too.

There were many otherwise, good-hearted slaveowners who didn't realize why slavery was an immoral institution or felt that they had to participate in it to survive.

Judges throw people just trying to get a bite to eat in prison every fucking day. Would you also like to ignore the hundreds of our comrades in prison everywhere from the US to Turkey?

'Our' comrades? Do I get to be an anarchist now?

THE POLICE PROTECT PROPERTY, HARASS THE HOMELESS, AND THEY FUCKING LOVE IT.

Some of them do, some of them don't (love harassing/dominating people). I'm not a police man, I reject their values.

I would kick your little racist Crimethinc ass if I got the chance.

Yet you question my anarchism.

Maybe, but what about self defence?

Self-defense (and defense of others) is justified.

[jack]

ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTIONS ON THE FIRST PAGE.

[African_Prince]

Jack,

I've no idea why you're so angry with me but I have to log off in a couple minutes

Abolish the state.


Stop paying taxes.



B) Repress the bourgeoisie.


Form separate societies where members agree that means of production are to be owned collectively by the community.


C) Seize property.

See previous replies. Even if this a good idea, so is not paying taxes. Answer my question :
HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY PAYING TAXES TO AN ORGANIZATION WHOSE AUTHORITY YOU REGARD AS ILLEGITIMATE? Stop trying to weasel out of the fact that you don't want to go to jail or live underground but this would be the consistent thing for a non-philosophical anarchist revolutionary to do.


D) Defend the revolution.

This is vague to me. Defend yourself whenever the need arises. Don't recognize the state's authority by refusing to pay taxes or obey laws when not doing so harms no one. Why do you think it's NECESSARY to pay taxes to 'defend the revolution'?

E) Reorganize the economy.

Develop separate societies, stop paying your taxes.

[jack]

Jack,

I've no idea why you're so angry with me but I have to log off in a couple minutes

Abolish the state.


Stop paying taxes.

I'm angry with you because you're a counterproductive, racist twat.

What if they come after you to collect? Does this abolsh capitalism? Is a cop no longer a cop if his pay is reduced?

B) Repress the bourgeoisie.


Form separate societies where members agree that means of production are to be owned collectively by the community.

You mean live the fuck in the woods like a goddamn hippie? For anyone who lives in a somewhat urban setting that's impossible, so available means of production must be seized to maintain productivity. Unless you want to build some utopia in the middle of the woods with your hippie friends, which despite being tried has never happened.

That's still not repression of the bourgeoisie.

C) Seize property.

See previous replies. Even if this a good idea, so is not paying taxes. Answer my question :
HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY PAYING TAXES TO AN ORGANIZATION WHOSE AUTHORITY YOU REGARD AS ILLEGITIMATE? Stop trying to weasel out of the fact that you don't want to go to jail or live underground but this would be the consistent thing for a non-philosophical anarchist revolutionary to do.

You didn't answer the question, you tried to distract me with another question then position yourself as "more anarchist than thou", with a complete lack of evidence. Of course, it's a stupid question because you are just a teenager. However, I will answer it: I don't advocate not paying taxes because A) I don't want to go to jail for something so stupid, B) I don't want to put my family though hell. I suppose caring for other people is oh so authoritarian?

Now answer the question, I laid out a situation (and didn't try a strawman), now you have to answer it.

D) Defend the revolution.

This is vague to me. Defend yourself whenever the need arises. Don't recognize the state's authority by refusing to pay taxes or obey laws when not doing so harms no one. Why do you think it's NECESSARY to pay taxes to 'defend the revolution'?

It's not vague, I gave specific examples of reactionaries who would oppose anarchism. Then you bring up taxes like that's what I'm fucking argueing for? You're a fucking idiot and you have no arguement.

E) Reorganize the economy.

Develop separate societies, stop paying your taxes.

NOT PAYING TAXES DOES NOT DO FUCKING ANYTHING I SAID!

Develop seperate societies? That's vague and retarded.

[African_Prince]

NOT PAYING TAXES DOES NOT DO FUCKING ANYTHING I SAID!

If everyone stopped paying their taxes, the state would be dismantled. They can't arrest everyone.


Develop seperate societies? That's vague and retarded.

Nowhere near as vague as getting outraged on the internet or seriously believing that you'll spread the anarchist message to enough people and then the state will magically wither away. What's the point in converting 90% of the human population to anarchism if they still behave as though the state's authority is legitimate (ie. pay their taxes)?

I really have no patience for the rest of your violent, unanarchist temper tantrum. Put your money where your mouth is or shut the fuck up.

[jack]

NOT PAYING TAXES DOES NOT DO FUCKING ANYTHING I SAID!

If everyone stopped paying their taxes, the state would be dismantled. They can't arrest everyone.

No, it wouldn't, and not everyone will ever stop paying their taxes, not gonna happen. That still does not address the rest of the problems, unless you're advocating Somalia.

Nowhere near as vague as getting outraged on the internet or seriously believing that you'll spread the anarchist message to enough people and then the state will magically wither away. What's the point in converting 90% of the human population to anarchism if they still behave as though the state's authority is legitimate (ie. pay their taxes)?

A) Doesn't address it, stop changing the subject
B) I never said that the state would "wither away" if people "convert to anarchism", a revolution is nessacary. It is YOU who is advocating the state to "wither away" because you magically think you can convince 100% of the populace of anarchism .

I really have no arguement for the rest of your legitimate points, . So I'm going to ignore it and bring up taxes like not paying them has ever changed a thing..

*Fixed.

You refuse to address my points because you have no arguement, so you just strawman me and say I'm "unanarchist" because I don't think people should risk prison for not paying taxes, especially because it doesn't change anything.

Do you even have a job? I really doubt it, which is why you are proposing such a rediculous thing, it's easy for you to not pay taxes because you don't have to. What about ZOMG SALES TAX! ANARCHISTS WHO SHOP ARE NOT ANARCHISTS!!111!1!11one

[Guest]

Intentional communities are tempting, but I can never get past the fact that we're not the ones who should be forced to remove ourselves from society. We're the good guys! We should force the bad guys out! This is our world, not theirs! We built civilization, not them!

Kropotkin had some sound words of advice for those intending to start separate communities.

I think it's probably better if we drop out from within, so-to-speak, and build the new world within the shell of the old. Tax resistance would seem to be a logical step in that process, but it would have to be well-organized and simultaneous. That battleground is littered with individuals who've tried to go it alone and managed only to get themselves a federal prison sentence for their trouble. And even if it were a collective effort, there would be casualties at the perimeter. There's a lot I'm willing to do, but there is a limit. I'm not going to throw myself on the taxman's sword as a martyr. I need to know that an army of comrades has got my back, before I go doing something that is virtually guaranteed to end badly otherwise.

Out of curiosity, what do you think would be a necessary number for an organized tax resistance movement to succeed, success being defined as being too numerous for the state to simply round us up and quietly throw us in a cage without our sacrifice spurring anyone else on? If their only response could be to hold congressional hearings on radical revisions to the tax code, even that would be a reasonable victory, as it would serve to expose the lie to the entire population. I expect it would snowball rather quickly when people saw the state wringing their hands on TV trying to figure out what to do about these X number of people refusing to pay taxes. "If they're getting away with it, then I'm not gonna pay either!" So, what do you think that number would have to be?

[Yarrow]

hey jack, calm down rude dude. how do you access the internet?

If there's a ticking bomb and I see two bombproof room in front of me, both unfortunately containing people, I'm going to take a quick survey and toss the bomb into the room with fewer people and slam the door. So I've just killed a room full of people, but I saved the greater number in the other room, and the even greater number in the rest of the building.

sorry to be so pedantic about a hypothetical, but i'd have to ask why there are some, but nnot all, people in bomproof rooms already? and whether throwing the bomb out a window would help. why is there a bomb?

BOOM

[Noleaders]

Self-defense (and defense of others) is justified.

Isnt that contrary to pacifism? Id call it anti-aggression not anti-violence.
Or maybe im a pacifist afterall....

[African_Prince]

Intentional communities are tempting, but I can never get past the fact that we're not the ones who should be forced to remove ourselves from society. We're the good guys! We should force the bad guys out! This is our world, not theirs! We built civilization, not them!

Kropotkin had some sound words of advice for those intending to start separate communities.

I think it's probably better if we drop out from within, so-to-speak, and build the new world within the shell of the old. Tax resistance would seem to be a logical step in that process, but it would have to be well-organized and simultaneous. That battleground is littered with individuals who've tried to go it alone and managed only to get themselves a federal prison sentence for their trouble. And even if it were a collective effort, there would be casualties at the perimeter. There's a lot I'm willing to do, but there is a limit. I'm not going to throw myself on the taxman's sword as a martyr. I need to know that an army of comrades has got my back, before I go doing something that is virtually guaranteed to end badly otherwise.

Out of curiosity, what do you think would be a necessary number for an organized tax resistance movement to succeed, success being defined as being too numerous for the state to simply round us up and quietly throw us in a cage without our sacrifice spurring anyone else on? If their only response could be to hold congressional hearings on radical revisions to the tax code, even that would be a reasonable victory, as it would serve to expose the lie to the entire population. I expect it would snowball rather quickly when people saw the state wringing their hands on TV trying to figure out what to do about these X number of people refusing to pay taxes. "If they're getting away with it, then I'm not gonna pay either!" So, what do you think that number would have to be?

I don't know what the right number would be but, without ad hominems, you've made a good point. Resisting taxes is useless, I guess, if it's not done simultaneously by a large enough amount of people who make clear why they're doing so and make sure to get enough (media) attention for doing so. Is that what you mean?

[African_Prince]

Intentional communities are tempting, but I can never get past the fact that we're not the ones who should be forced to remove ourselves from society. We're the good guys! We should force the bad guys out! This is our world, not theirs! We built civilization, not them!

Kropotkin had some sound words of advice for those intending to start separate communities.

I think it's probably better if we drop out from within, so-to-speak, and build the new world within the shell of the old. Tax resistance would seem to be a logical step in that process, but it would have to be well-organized and simultaneous. That battleground is littered with individuals who've tried to go it alone and managed only to get themselves a federal prison sentence for their trouble. And even if it were a collective effort, there would be casualties at the perimeter. There's a lot I'm willing to do, but there is a limit. I'm not going to throw myself on the taxman's sword as a martyr. I need to know that an army of comrades has got my back, before I go doing something that is virtually guaranteed to end badly otherwise.

Out of curiosity, what do you think would be a necessary number for an organized tax resistance movement to succeed, success being defined as being too numerous for the state to simply round us up and quietly throw us in a cage without our sacrifice spurring anyone else on? If their only response could be to hold congressional hearings on radical revisions to the tax code, even that would be a reasonable victory, as it would serve to expose the lie to the entire population. I expect it would snowball rather quickly when people saw the state wringing their hands on TV trying to figure out what to do about these X number of people refusing to pay taxes. "If they're getting away with it, then I'm not gonna pay either!" So, what do you think that number would have to be?

I don't know what the right number would be but, without ad hominems, you've made a good point. Resisting taxes is useless, I guess, if it's not done simultaneously by a large enough amount of people who make clear why they're doing so and make sure to get enough (media) attention for doing so. Is that what you mean?

Edit : I thought I was replying to the 'a real revolution' thread.

[Toast]

What if half of the tax payers in america stopped paying taxes and they all went to jail at the same time?
This is unlikely to happen, but I'm just wondering.

[coup-detat]

The prisons would be overflowing and they wouldn't have the money to keep it up. People would realize the fraud of the state and we'd have a revolution.

[Noleaders]

The prisons would be overflowing and they wouldn't have the money to keep it up. People would realize the fraud of the state and we'd have a revolution.

Or collapse...

Better have some alternate institutions built up first or it would get nasty.