I guess I'm not a 'nationalist' after all

[African_Prince]

I think I've figured it out. Pan-Africanism (or pan-Indianism, pan-Asianism, pan-Europeanism etc.) is the world view that advocates the unification of all African and/or African descended people (or Native Americans, Asians, Europeans etc.) on the basis that they share a common heritage and a similar social/political predicament. The term 'nationalism' is usually used to describe a world view that emphasizes socio/politico/economic independence of one group from others (am I wrong?). It's entirely possible to advocate African/ethnic unity without advocating African/ethnic nationalism and although ethnic nationalists tend to be for ethnic unity, one could advocate political/social/economic independence from non-group members without necessarily identifying with or advocating unity with *all* group members. In my view, pan-Africanism/pan-Indianism/pan-Asianism etc. is based on love whereas nationalism is based on pride. My views are more accurately described as 'pan-Africanist' rather than 'nationalist', although I've avoided the term for some time because it's debatable as to who who should be considered 'African'.

I still don't see how 'nationalism' (as I've now defined it) is incompatible with anarchism. I agree with some tenets of nationalism but I think it's generally limited and unnecessary. Because unity requires equality, I think that all all consistent pan-Africanists/Indianists/Europeanists etc. should also be anarcho-communists.

[Insecuritykiller]

It's just a word. Used and abused. I'm happy you think black people aren't too black. I don't live in africa so i don't know what it's like to be one or live with africans all around you. You might have a better idea then me, but you probably live in america. Still you probably know what it's like to have black parents, family and friends.

Now i know i've been disrespectful in the past on this board, saying the n word and such. And i apologise for that.

May i ask this question? Is it completely ok to have all black people around you? Or do you think africans like to get away from the 'blackness'? Do you like the idea of a civilized africa, an africa civilization?

Africas becoming better and there are a few african cities springing up. African schools, african businesses.

Maybe soon, after the decline of the west the world will turn its attenction to africa. Maybe it might take in immigrants then. Then you can have asian, inian and arab people living there. Would you prefer this to happen or not?

Nationalism, or pan-europeanism, or even racism, seems to be a lost cause to me. I'm not sure it's worth the effort. But in another world where it was worth the effort i think i might of changed my mind. Maybe i think it is better to have immigration. I don't know though, i'm kind of undicided on it. I don't like to take sides, i like to figure out the truth.

Your perspective would be greatly valued.

[Insecuritykiller]

In a true pan-africans mind, white skin would be seen as ugly and unnatural. Is this ever true? Could it be true you think?

[Guest]

unification ... on the basis that they share a common heritage

sounds good, let's unify all of humanity.

as has been explained to you several times, the lines you draw are arbitrary. you base them on ethnicity, or continent of origin, or whatever. replace 'europeans' and 'asians' with 'german shepherds' and 'siberian huskies' and it becomes immediately ridiculous.

if you start by drawing a circle around yourself, then extend it outward to encircle your immediate family, then again for your extended family, then again for your friends and their friends, then again for everyone in your hometown, then... clearly, if we're all doing this, our circles will overlap and we'll end up circling the whole planet. so why not do that in the 1st place? 'oh, no no no!' you say. 'we've got to stop at africa!' (or wherever.)

there's you, and then there's everyone. those are the ends of the scale. choosing a point in between them will be arbitrary. we're all the same species.

[Insecuritykiller]

Yeah but he might hate white people because he doesnt like to look at them. Or... he respects them, and doesn't want to stop them from existing. Or... He might want to have a real black africa. Black people aren't under threat of not existing yet, but they might one day. Maybe he wants a society that has the black style.

Or for any other reason. I'm sure there are lots of them.

I have many black people screaming behind me at this moment. True and unrelated. They aren't watching. They are the neighbours.

[Jawn Disease]

There's a word we use for pan-Europeanists...

[thelastindividual]

There's a word we use for pan-Europeanists...

Haha!

[Insecuritykiller]

or pan-anythingists. Would a pan-africanist still be a racist? yes.

[African_Prince]

sounds good, let's unify all of humanity.

There is no conflict between pan-humanism and pan-Africanism. Being human is a part of my identity, but it doesn't encompass all of my identity. There are some experiences that I share in common with other African people that I don't have in common with Mexicans but there are also some experiences that I have in common with Mexican men that I don't have in common with African women. It isn't an either or scenario, with one friend you can bond over a love of art, music and literature whereas another friend might not be interested in these things but you might share with them an interest in computers, science, sports etc. Every relationship we have is different from any other since all of the individuals we form relationships with are different from one another.

as has been explained to you several times, the lines you draw are arbitrary. you base them on ethnicity, or continent of origin, or whatever. replace 'europeans' and 'asians' with 'german shepherds' and 'siberian huskies' and it becomes immediately ridiculous.

Drawing a line between siblings and complete strangers is also arbitrary since all biological organisms on the planet share some genetic heritage in common, yet most people have a special kind of relationship with family members that they don't have with friends, lovers and strangers. You draw an arbitrary line between humans and chimpanzees but in my view, all sentient beings deserve equal, moral consideration. I have more in common with an adult chimpanzee than I do with a human infant.

if you start by drawing a circle around yourself, then extend it outward to encircle your immediate family, then again for your extended family, then again for your friends and their friends, then again for everyone in your hometown, then... clearly, if we're all doing this, our circles will overlap and we'll end up circling the whole planet. so why not do that in the 1st place? 'oh, no no no!' you say. 'we've got to stop at africa!' (or wherever.)

Being African is a part of my identity. Unity with other Africans is completely irrelevant to unity with Irish workers on the basis of class or unity with Black Brasiliens on the basis of race. You're seeing a conflict where there isn't any and I think it's overly simplistic.

there's you, and then there's everyone. those are the ends of the scale. choosing a point in between them will be arbitrary. we're all the same species.

Again, I appreciate the irony of your criticizing me for drawing arbitrary lines between Africans and non-Africans yet you're drawing an arbitrary line between humans and non-human great apes. Life is arbitrary, even classifying species is problematic (and there is no absolute trait that all humans and only humans share). There are many aspects to a person's identity and we relate to different people on different grounds, our relationship with one person has nothing to do with our relationship with another

Insecurity, something is wrong with my computer (or the site). I will try to respond to you later.

[Guest]

"Being human is a part of my identity, but it doesn't encompass all of my identity."

yes, it does. at least, all those aspects which you've been discussing. the arbitrary lines you're drawing (african, male, liking certain music, etc.) fall under the heading of 'human'.

"It isn't an either or scenario"

indeed it isn't: a slice of pie doesn't contradict the whole pie. so why are you pretending that it does?

"Every relationship we have is different from any other since all of the individuals we form relationships with are different from one another."

so what? we're all in this together. there's no need to draw circles around certain humans based on more finely-grained criteria. all that does is divide us. if we're walking down the street with friends and a group of people attack us, ok, that's 'them' and we're 'us'. it's justified. but dividing people based on melanin content isn't justified. you fucking racist cunt.

"in my view, all sentient beings deserve equal, moral consideration"

bullshit. in your view, 'all are equal, but some are more equal than others.'

"You're seeing a conflict where there isn't any"

i'm reading your fucking words. you seek to divide people along racial lines. you're a fucking racist.

"Again, I appreciate the irony of your criticizing me for drawing arbitrary lines between Africans and non-Africans yet you're drawing an arbitrary line between humans and non-human great apes."

nope, that's where i would have gone next, if you'd have conceded your arbitrary idiocy, but you refuse. if we discover alien life, i'd fold that into the circle as well. don't fucking lecture me about drawing a line around humans when you're drawing an even smaller one. i'm trying to get you to broaden your own racist circle first, before i can even begin to get through to you on the commonality of life itself. moreover, life is only animated matter. so we've got commonality with the planet, and so on, and should give at least half a shit about taking care of our environment. this all comes later, after i've cut the swastika tattoo off your chest.

you fucking vile scum.

[jack]

I WANT A UNIFIED AFRICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Oh wait, what kind of beaurocratic system with a monopoly on lands inhabbited by majority Africans would that require....


Also, you're a shitty fucking pan Africanist as well since you only care about Black Africans. You're still a fucking racist.

[Insecuritykiller]

Wow what a couple of good little anarchists. Or more like what a couple of good little capitalists.

Or.. what a couple of morons.

People are free. Free to like skin colour.

[coup-detat]

Oh goodness, what I've been hoping for for months may soon come to pass. A battle of the racists between African_Prince and IK! Please do! We'd all love to watch.

[Guest]

The view that My continent, my nationality, my race, or my gender is "the best" seems to have as much validity as "my high school is the best, rah, rah, rah." The best in what regard? The happiest, most creative, most ethical, and most stress-free? Or the most anal-retentive, stress-prone, militaristic, and depressed?

[Guest]

otherguest has touched on the fundamental flaw of hitching one's wagon to 'markets' and 'competition' as a means to determine what is 'best'. i'm reminded of the (conservative/ultra-capitalist 'think'-tank) heritage foundation's 'economic freedom' index. depending on your perspective, you could almost turn the results upside down and they'd be more accurate. the presumptions of competition are rarely considered, but they're at least as relevant to evaluating the outcomes as are the outcomes themselves. what are we trying to determine, when we compete on the market? it isn't self-evident simply by virtue of the nature of the beast. it's entirely possible (and i think often likely) that to 'win' on the market is to lose somewhere else.