the left gatekeepers, zinn joins the club

[AndyMalroes]

To be fair, a plane flew into The Empire State Building in the '40s and it didn't fall down, and it's probably much less structurally sophisticated.

Well, I'll admit when i'm just being antagonistic. Bye!

[Guest]

Well, I'll admit when i'm just being antagonistic. Bye!

don't worry, people who present the actual truth (based on facts and logic) are quite used to that reaction, i assure you.

to those in the "it doesn't matter" camp:

1) you are a bunch of fucking racial nationalists. IT MATTERS TO THE PEOPLE HAVING BOMBS DROPPED ON THEIR HEADS IN THE NAME OF 9/11 YOU SHITHEADS.

2) why do leftists hate themselves so much? why are they so self defeating? revealing truth is of no consequence? has no effect? basically you are saying that nothing will change no matter what you do. of course, your lies are so fucking transparent. you hold up criminals like medea benjamin and amy goodman because they supposedly "speak truth to power" but when someone reveals a truth which shows that brown people ARE NOT guilty of a crime and that it was your very own leaders that did it... well ... then it "doesn't really matter" - eh?

in your quiver or arrows aimed at the state, one is labelled "the actual truth" - it has the power to BREAK THE SPELL - something anarchists are supposed to want - not shun.

[Guest]

ambi, I suggest you stop hanging out with faux anarchists in yuppie-ville because your stereotype is hardly relevant and your continual rants are just embarrassing. Medea and Amy are not even in our scope. Really, be a nice considerate person and ask AndyMalroes, he'll tell you this, 100%.

(And yes ambi you know who I am and I know it is you, so don't play idiot here; there's only one person who comes to flag and accuses its users of being rats and liberals.)

[AndyMalroes]

(And yes ambi you know who I am and I know it is you, so don't play idiot here; there's only one person who comes to flag and accuses its users of being rats and liberals.)

I'd say it's more like 17, but anyway I doubt its him.

[Zazaban]

Exposing 9/11 will not lead to anarchy. The thought is absurd. People will not suddenly think 'oh, this means that all forms of rulers and the state are evil must be abolished'. They will still think that the lack of rulers will lead to chaos, and most of them will probably still believe capitalism is the best system in the world. Their solution will simply be to try the conspirators in a legal trial, then elect new people, and declare everything tickity-boo.

This is why I don't like the angle of criticizing individual people in the system in place of criticizing the whole system itself. It implies that if the system is run by good people than there would be no problem. A criticism of the system still applies even after all the possible members of a conspiracy are dead. An attack on a specific individual or number of individuals will cease applying as soon as they are out of office.

[Gruph]

... I don't like the angle of criticizing individual people in the system in place of criticizing the whole system itself. It implies that if the system is run by good people than there would be no problem.

Exactly. It's like when a few establishment people finally come around to criticizing the actions of the establishment. It's always framed as a bungled attempt to do good, never as wrongdoing.

[snowflake]

Exposing 9/11 will not lead to anarchy. The thought is absurd. People will not suddenly think 'oh, this means that all forms of rulers and the state are evil must be abolished'. They will still think that the lack of rulers will lead to chaos, and most of them will probably still believe capitalism is the best system in the world. Their solution will simply be to try the conspirators in a legal trial, then elect new people, and declare everything tickity-boo.

This is why I don't like the angle of criticizing individual people in the system in place of criticizing the whole system itself. It implies that if the system is run by good people than there would be no problem. A criticism of the system still applies even after all the possible members of a conspiracy are dead. An attack on a specific individual or number of individuals will cease applying as soon as they are out of office.

that's a really good point, and i agree almost completely, but i disagree in so far as SOME people, who would otherwise think the state protects them from evil terrorists, will realize the actual violent nature of the citizen-state relationship upon learning the truth about 9/11. its not gonna happen for everybody, but i think every little bit helps. of course, this is not at all how the issue is presented with the whole "we need a new investigation" angle, but then again the 9/11 truth movement is not an anarchist movement. they're actually legitimizing the state by asking it to save them from itself. this isn't how everybody presents it though, and certainly not how i present it when i talk to people about it.

now, i'm not advocating that anybody take up 9/11 truth in place of criticizing the system itself. im not advocating that anybody embrace or even accept the mainstream 9/11 truth movement. but that doesn't mean we can't be factually accurate. i now realize how frivolous it is for people to focus exclusively on 9/11 in their activism, but if the topic comes up, i'm not going to tolerate the state's racist lie. calling them on their lie at the appropriate times, like when people invoke it, has more potential to undermine the state than accepting the lie as fact does, at least in my opinion.

[Zazaban]

Or, it could also conceivably turn people off the movement. There's already a lot of people who equate the anarchist movement with the zeitgeist crowd, I've actually had to correct people who've assumed me being an anarchist meant I was a fan of it. A lot of people don't care for conspiracy types, and if people equate anarchism with that, then less people will consider it. Just a thought.

[snowflake]

Or, it could also conceivably turn people off the movement. There's already a lot of people who equate the anarchist movement with the zeitgeist crowd, I've actually had to correct people who've assumed me being an anarchist meant I was a fan of it. A lot of people don't care for conspiracy types, and if people equate anarchism with that, then less people will consider it. Just a thought.

i don't see the anarchist movement getting into conspiracies on any kind of significant scale, ever, nor am i saying that i would like to see that happen.

i see your point, but its still not compelling enough to cause me to submit to the state's lies and keep my mouth shut when people say we're under attack by muslims.

[Kow]

911 truth meaningless? If the truth gets to the masses it would be a great attack on Statism. The realization that our government does not exist for our protection is essential. 9/11 is the hugest example of the fact. People would demand an end to the war if they were informed about how it was started.

No physics student would agree that giant steel skyscrapers could collapse through themselves in just over free fall speed.

[Zazaban]

Per that logic, there should have been a sharp rise in anti-statist sentiment following World War II and The Holocaust. In fact, anarchism was at it's all time low-point, and there was a rise in hyper-patriotism and complacency. The Holocaust was much worse than 9/11.

Note that I myself do not accept the standard account of 9/11, so I'm not just trying to sweep the issue under the rug.

[AndyMalroes]

Note that I myself do not accept the standard account of 9/11, so I'm not just trying to sweep the issue under the rug.

What do you believe happened? (just for curiosities sake.)

[Zazaban]

Note that I myself do not accept the standard account of 9/11, so I'm not just trying to sweep the issue under the rug.

What do you believe happened? (just for curiosities sake.)

The only thing I'm really convinced of is that the US government knew about the attacks before hand, and they didn't do a great deal to stop them. I don't know if this is due to stupidity, arrogance, or if they in fact had something to do with it.

[Zazaban]

Apparently, they've now discovered bomb residue at ground zero. That kinda settles it. Wow.

[thelastindividual]

Apparently, they've now discovered bomb residue at ground zero. That kinda settles it. Wow.

Woh! Sauce?