Human"ism"

[gnost]

This is about Men against Animals! <br>Why is people against animals? <br>Why when a person kills other person, it goes to jail! But when a person kills a dog, it's fined! I can't understand this "ism"! Why other animals don't have the same "previledges" as humans! Although, we are also animals, aren't we? We eat, so they... We move, they also! We reproduce, they also! We talk, they also! They do everything we do! But besides that, "we" continue to treat as we are superior... Why?

[Theobalt]

I don't consider myself to be superior to any other animal. I'm just happy to be a human male, with all the advantages it has! (Hey! a tree is a toilet for me! And it also provide paper!) <br> <br>It may not seem, but I am full of respect for the pork I eat. I'm serious!!! <br> <br>I think it is mostly religion that gives people power over the life of other animals. God didn't create plants and animals for us to master? In many primitive religions, humans are considered as only a part of a great puzzle, as other animals are. We are all parts of an equilibrium that keeps everything alive. If we break this equilibrium, we die... For this, I have more respect for these religions than for christianism and the likes. <br> <br>Also, there is this wrong belief that tells that we are the only ones to feel emotions and to think. It is obviously false if you take the time to observe animals.

[Guest]

They do everything we do! <br>-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- <br> <br>Astrophysics? <br> <br>But seriously now, people who like a quick end to arguments will employ this one phrase...tool use. I prefer to think the one thing humans have that the rest of the life on this planet doesn't have is an over-inflated ego.

[Kevehs]

I very much agree with you here raindog. I think the ability to (erroneously?) create this artificial "I" and then attach exessive value to it is perhaps our most unique feature. I am ever puzzled over whether or not this feature has any positive value.

[svoboda]

Gnost: I can't understand this "ism"! Why other animals don't have the same "previledges" as humans! Although, we are also animals, aren't we? We eat, so they... We move, they also! We reproduce, they also! We talk, they also! They do everything we do! But besides that, "we" continue to treat as we are superior... Why? <br> <br>Svo: Animals are being objectified, commodified and treated as lesser beings in order to justify their exploitation by humans. Isn't it obvious, Gnost? <br> <br>But in any event, it's remarkable that the question has been posed by an individual who eats animals and who has imprisoned a number of living creatures in his home zoo. Perhaps trying to figure out why you indulge in such activities might help you explain why "we", as a society, marginalise animals.

[svoboda]

Gnost: They do everything we do! <br> <br>Raindog: Astrophysics? <br> <br>Svo: Well, it may well be that animals do very sophisticated things which we are unable to see and appreciate because our reality is too different from theirs. <br> <br>Raindog: I prefer to think the one thing humans have that the rest of the life on this planet doesn't have is an over-inflated ego. <br> <br>Svo: How do you know what kind of ego animals do or do not have? BTW, "over-inflated" presumes some standard of "normality" where ego is neither under-inflated nor over-inflated. I would be interested to know what that standard is.

[ThePeccary]

Animals are being objectified, commodified and treated as lesser beings in order to justify their exploitation by humans. <br> <br>Animals are lesser beings. <br> <br>I've never understood people who think that humans are no better than, say, cockroaches or maggots, especially when said people knowingly cause death and suffering to innocent plants in order to eat their godawful veggie burgers. "But Pec, plants can't feel pain in the same way as animals can, because of their vastly lower intelligence". Well guess what? Animals are vastly less...good...at...being...intelligent than wot us humans are. Their 'pain' is much more basic than ours, just as the pain plants feel is much more basic than the pain animals feel. If you can justify the death of plants for food or recreation, it is hypocritical to condemn humans for doing the same thing to animals.

[Guest]

Gnost: They do everything we do! <br> <br>Raindog: Astrophysics? <br> <br>Svo: Well, it may well be that animals do very sophisticated things which we are unable to see and appreciate because our reality is too different from theirs. <br> <br>raindog: Pardon...I neglected to add the wink. It is true that our fellow travellers on spaceship earth have a wide variety of unique talents and abilities. Perhaps douglas adams had it right about the mice. <br> <br>Raindog: I prefer to think the one thing humans have that the rest of the life on this planet doesn't have is an over-inflated ego. <br> <br>Svo: How do you know what kind of ego animals do or do not have? BTW, "over-inflated" presumes some standard of "normality" where ego is neither under-inflated nor over-inflated. I would be interested to know what that standard is. <br> <br>raindog: How do I know? They'll communicate with anyone who is willing. As for the standard, I'd say it falls somewhere in between "What I perceive to be necessary to my well-being is more important than anything else - even the well being of others.", and "What I perceive to be necessary to the well-being of others is more important than anything else - even my own well-being." <br> <br>I was remiss to mention in my initial statement that some of humanity have the capacity to be posessed of under-inflated ego as well. So perhaps it is not our egos that make us different from the rest of life on this planet so much as our tendencies toward extremism.

[gnost]

"But in any event, it's remarkable that the question has been posed by an individual who eats animals and who has imprisoned a number of living creatures in his home zoo. Perhaps trying to figure out why you indulge in such activities might help you explain why "we", as a society, marginalise animals." <br>As I said: If I was supposed to eat only grass, nature would give me a "cow style" stomach! <br>I don't have a zoo in my home! I have lots of animals, because I like them! But they are free... Except the fishs! eheheh! But if I didn't took care of them, where would they be? Probably both my dogs were dead... The fishs on some other aquarium or already dead by starvatium or living in a store aquarium where the fishs don't have enough oxygen on the water... Probably the birds would already dye of freeze! They're not used to Portugal temperature! What do you want me to do? Buy a ticket plain and go to Brasil and free the birds? Why? There are so many in Ptgal, and I don't have enough money to release only one... My dogs, they are free... If they wanted to run away, they would go! Besides that, I treat all the animals in my home with respect! They have the same priviledges as I do! They eat the best food I can get! The dogs have lots of toys to play, and I spend very time playing with them! I even let them sleep wherever they want! One prefers to sleep on a couch, and the other one on my bed! Fine! Let them sleep! Usually I released my hamsters, but I found out that one of my dogs like playing with them by throwing them in the air and letting them fall off! So, I prefer not to! All animals have space enough to have their lifes! I spent lots of money with them... Not even my mother supports them, because she says that I spent lots of money on food, when I could buy much cheaper food! (and I don't buy no pedigree pal and shits like that) So, to answer your comments about my zoo, I ask you: Do you prefer to have a dead dog, or any other creature beeing mistreated, or do you prefer that they stay at my place? I can tell you that both my dogs were sleeping on the street and both of them never run away from me, when they saw how they treat them! (only one tries to escape when it's bath time) So! Answer? What do you prefer? I didn't went all along until some jungle and catch some animal! I just picked up abandoned animals and some from some really bad pet shops! If anyone ever comes to see my place, you'll probably see that it's not really "my place"! Most of the space of my room is filled with pet stuffs and the animals can walk wherever they want, whenever they want! (except the fishs)

[svoboda]

Pec: Animals are lesser beings. <br>Svo: Well, some of them are lesser in the sense that they are smaller than humans. Cockroaches or maggots would be an example. <br> <br>Pec: I've never understood people who think that humans are no better than, say, cockroaches or maggots, especially when said people knowingly cause death and suffering to innocent plants in order to eat their godawful veggie burgers. "But Pec, plants can't feel pain in the same way as animals can, because of their vastly lower intelligence". <br>Svo: Ah… The revival of the unsuccessful vegetarianism debate. May I correct you, the argument was that plants probably couldn't feel pain not because of their vastly lower intelligence but because they lack central nervous system. <br> <br>Pec: Well guess what? Animals are vastly less...good...at...being...intelligent than wot us humans are. <br>Svo: That's according to human standards, but guess what? It may well be that animals have their own standards by which they evaluate those with whom they share the planet, and by which humans will not be ranked very high. In fact, I have a number of extremely intelligent animal friends -- much more intelligent than some humans I know. <br> <br>Pec: Their 'pain' is much more basic than ours, just as the pain plants feel is much more basic than the pain animals feel. <br>Svo: May be. Or may be not. Apparently, if you are right, isn't it an argument in favour of eating plants instead of animals? <br> <br>Pec: If you can justify the death of plants for food or recreation, it is hypocritical to condemn humans for doing the same thing to animals. <br>Svo: First, I don't know what you mean by "recreation". If you mean things like cutting Christmas trees and flowers for decoration and other silly purposes, then I believe that such activities are immoral. Second, I honestly think it is hypocritical on the part of meat-eaters to condemn vegetarians for eating plants.

[svoboda]

raindog: I was remiss to mention in my intial statement that some of humanity have the capacity to be posessed of under-inflated ego as well. So perhaps it is not our egos that make us different from the rest of life on this planet so much as our tendencies toward extremism. <br> <br>svo: I really am not convinced that similar tendencies are absent among other creatures. We all know instances of animals sacrificing their own lives to save lives of other animals and even humans, and we all know instances of animals treating other beings not very nicely. <br>

[svoboda]

Sorry, but what you've described looks, sounds and smells like a zoo. You've imprisoned a huge number of animals "because you like them". By doing so, you have effectively turned them into toys for yourself and your other animals (as the example of the dog torturing the hamster vividly demonstrates). This is an exploitation of animals. <br> <br>Had you not caged them, yes, there is a possibility that they might have been dead now, but there is equally a possibility that they would have been alive and enjoying freedom. <br> <br>Gnost: Probably the birds would already dye of freeze! They're not used to Portugal temperature! <br>Svo: If so, what the hell are they doing in Portugal? Why aren't they in Brazil? Isn't it because some people like you support those who capture them, bring them to Portugal and sell them to people like you? <br> <br>Gnost: What do you want me to do? Buy a ticket plain and go to Brasil and free the birds? Why? <br>Svo: My guess would be that you shouldn't perpetuate and reinforce animal slavery by buying animals. Boycotting pet-shops may be a start. Refusing to domesticate wild animals would be another step in the right direction. For instance, why on earth did you turn your dogs into your toys? Why do you wash the dog against her/his will? Why do you treat them like silly idiots, providing them with "lots of toys to play"? <br> <br>Gnost: I ask you: Do you prefer to have a dead dog, or any other creature beeing mistreated, or do you prefer that they stay at my place? <br>Svo: Is there a third option? <br>No, I don't want to see dead dogs and mistreated creatures, but I am not sure if your animals aren't being mistreated by you. To me, depriving someone of their freedom is the most evil thing is the world. And I am not convinced at all that they would have been dead/mistreated had you not imprisoned them in your room. <br> <br>Gnost: I didn't went all along until some jungle and catch some animal! I just picked up abandoned animals and some from some really bad pet shops! <br>Svo: Don't you find something really really really sick about buying an animal as if she or he was an object, a commodity? <br>Why did you pick up some of them? Were they ill or something? Are you sure they wanted you to pick them up? When I lived in Eastern Europe, there were many homeless animals running around, and they often came to my place for a "dinner", but it never even occurred to me to cage them. Well, I picked up quite a few creatures, but they were very ill for some reason, usually after they had been tortured by some sadists. But once they were well again, I always released them.

[ThePeccary]

Well, some of them are lesser in the sense that they are smaller than humans. Cockroaches or maggots would be an example. <br> <br>Also, animals are not as good at football as humans. Based solely on the criteria of size/ football ability, it becomes clear that plants < animals < Dennis Wise < human beings < elephants. <br> <br>Ah… The revival of the unsuccessful vegetarianism debate. <br> <br>I was trying to avoid that, actually. I was trying to argue that the same thing that makes marginalization of plants OK also makes marginalization of animals OK. <br> <br>May I correct you, the argument was that plants probably couldn't feel pain not because of their vastly lower intelligence but because they lack central nervous system. <br> <br>They can still feel pain though. <br> <br>In fact, I have a number of extremely intelligent animal friends -- much more intelligent than some humans I know. <br> <br>I'd heard that about Yorkshire. <br> <br>Apparently, if you are right, isn't it an argument in favour of eating plants instead of animals? <br> <br>It's an argument in favour of eating/ enslaving animals AND plants, but not humans. <br> <br>I don't know what you mean by "recreation" <br> <br>Honestly officer, that's not a bong...It's..erm...a respirator. <br> <br>I honestly think it is hypocritical on the part of meat-eaters to condemn vegetarians for eating plants. <br> <br>I agree.

[svoboda]

Well, we've disagreed, but that was an entertaining and educative post

[Kevehs]

>>>> <br>It's an argument in favour of eating/ enslaving animals AND plants, but not humans. <br>>>>> <br> <br>I'm being lazy again. Would you mind repeating that argument for me? Was it that animals and plants can be consumed/enslaved because they are much less intelligent than humans?