White Middle-Class Males

[Man]

That fight club was good. Men are emasculated, but by themselves... which is what is was saying anyway. <br> <br>Bring me the superman.

[Din]

[color=green]Women demand because men don't love.</font color=green> <br> <br>And that stereotype assumes that women needs men to love them - and that women depends on men. They don't. <br> <br>[color=green]Women do participate they just participate according to their interests</font color=green> <br> <br>What are these interests you speak of? Washing dishes? Being a housewife? Women have been consistently restricted from participating in many aspects of life - and it is rather ridiculous to think that is because they merely participate according to their interests. Politics are not in their interests? Having a job is not in their interests? <br> <br>[color=green]In the UK women do have more leave time than men.</font color=green> <br> <br>So? You say that as if women are more advantaged than men.

[Man]

Din. <br> <br>Please stop projecting things on to me. You really don't have to, you know. If you can't trust me then why are you an anarchist? <br> <br>If a woman is with a man and she receives no love then she is going to suffer most of the time because that is how things are. Of course women don't need men. People don't need anything really. Most women are not free in their minds and thus... the world. <br> <br>Politics is a selfish game of division, so on a universal scale it is in no-ones interests. <br> <br>I really ought to set out what each word means to me otherwise you are just going to contradict me. <br> <br>Instead of picking on the part why not try to understand the whole...? <br> <br>I am saying that it is equally man and woman's responsibility to make this world a 'better place'. How is it not in your view? <br> <br>All of the workplaces I have been in have pretty much equal representation. Around the world things are very different of course and even in the UK there is this idea of the 'glass ceiling' (only in certain areas of course)... <br> <br>Yes, yes I know that. <br> <br>But I guess in a relationship between a sadist and a masochist you would blame the sadist? Is this the case? <br> <br>I disagree. Relations go both ways.

[Din]

[color=green]If you can't trust me then why are you an anarchist?</font color=green> <br> <br>I need to trust you to be an anarchist? <br> <br>[color=green]I am saying that it is equally man and woman's responsibility to make this world a 'better place'.</font color=green> <br> <br>Well, strangely enough, I get the impression that you are saying that women have been equally responsible for how the world already is. Note the difference between past tense and future tense. <br> <br>[color=green]Please stop projecting things on to me.</font color=green> <br> <br>I am responding to what you write. If you wish to talk in riddles, that's your problem. <br> <br>[color=green]But I guess in a relationship between a sadist and a masochist you would blame the sadist? Is this the case?</font color=green> <br> <br>So apparently you can project things on to me.

[Man]

I would say you do need to trust people to have any possibility of an anarchistic world, yes. <br> <br>Women have been equally responsible, yes. <br> <br>I have not projected, I have asked a question with the use of a possible projection to encourage an answer. You did not answer the question. <br> <br>You are not only responding to what I write, but what you think I might mean by what I write. You appear to think that I am a middle-class sexist and that I think in stereotypes. That is what you appear to have summised from a few words. Now who is sterotyping me or you? <br> <br>I love the way you debate. It is class. Ha ha. You really don't need to think in such a defensive way... or am I projecting again? <br> <br>It's not like we even disagree on this issue particularly. <br>And these are honest questions, not just rhetoric.

[Din]

[color=green]It's not like we even disagree on this issue particularly.</font color=green> <br> <br>We do. I find your assertion that women have been equally responsible to be nothing short of ridiculous and offensive. It smacks of a white male being so blinded by his privileged position that he fails to recognize the extent to which women have been restricted and marginalized from participating in many areas of life. Your response to this - that women do participate but just in their interests - bears the stench of sexism.

[DirkRamrod]

"that women do participate but just in their interests" <br> <br>Purely knee-jerk: Heh, egoist [img]/wwwthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Man]

We are all equally responsible for having fear and desire. The root of the world problems lie there not in some political chamber... That's just the outward manifestation of our problems. And you see, women as well as men are responsible for what goes on within... <br> <br>women participate in their interests - terrible line of writing by me. I apologise for it. Rubbish. But I did mean something by it. And that is what I have tried to explain above. Women are the majority. Why haven't they done something about their position... fear, yes and because they didn't want to. They were too busy with their life as it it is/was... <br> <br>The peasants were no allowed to participate in Feudal society, but that was partly their fault as well... <br> <br>I do think women have been marginalised and I do think that men have been fuckwits towards women and... <br> <br>And what is my priveleged position? How much do you know about my life? Very little... <br> <br>Lecture boy. <br> <br> <br>Edit: In my life the women I have known have had no issues regarding doing what they wanted to do. <br> <br>I know there has been a pay gap for some and there has been domestic violence... and so much more... <br> <br>Why don't women leave these abusive relationships? (I just wonder if anyone knows much about this) <br> <br>Din, why don't you think women are reponsible for the world in which they live? Can you answer this one. You have avoided loads of my questions so far, please don't avoid this one... I want to understand... <br> <br>Oh, and why do you find it so offensive what I said? That smacks of attachment to an idea you have...

[Morpheus]

[color=blue]Din, why don't you think women are reponsible for the world in which they live?</font color=blue> <br> <br>We live in a patriarchical world, and have for many centuries, where women have less power then men. Major decisions are usually made by men, women are forced to obey. Women had little say in shaping how the world is today. Stop blaming the victim.

[Din]

[color=green]And what is my priveleged position? How much do you know about my life? Very little...</font color=green> <br> <br>I know that you are a male. Which puts you - and me - in a position of privilege relative to women. <br> <br>[color=green]Why don't women leave these abusive relationships? (I just wonder if anyone knows much about this)</font color=green> <br> <br>They do. It's a common myth that women do not leave their abusive husbands. It is an even greater myth that their problems could be simply solved by just leaving their abusive husbands. As it so happens, an extremely significant number of cases in which a man killed his spouse occurs after the wife has already left the abusive husband. <br> <br>[color=green]Din, why don't you think women are reponsible for the world in which they live? Can you answer this one.</font color=green> <br> <br>I already have. <br> <br>And ditto Morpheus' response. <br> <br>[color=green]You have avoided loads of my questions so far, please don't avoid this one...</font color=green> <br> <br>I have no interest in playing riddles or getting embroiled in rhetorical accusations of projections. And you have avoided most of my points too.

[Man]

Victim...? <br> <br>That's often just a mental thing. If you think you are a victim you will always be one. That is why it is partly the victims problem, just like a masochist in a sadist-masochist relation. Whose fault is it...? It's a relation of power between two people. <br> <br>I see we are no further from the society discussed by Nietzsche than ever.

[Man]

Only priveleged in relation to some women. Not all of them. <br> <br>Thanks for the stuff on abusive relations. I guessed that a lot of women did leave... but what is an abusive relationship... does it mean violence? What about all those relations where the man doesn't love the woman and they stay because of security... or fear of change... etc. I count that as an abusive relation too. <br> <br>What points of yours have I avoided? I will speak on them if you think I have not already. <br> <br>

[Man]

Power does not exist, but is a mental creation of relationships. <br> <br>Women don't have to obey. Only fear and desire are making them do so. If they didn't want something out of life then they wouldn't need to obey. <br> <br>It's quite simple. <br> <br>Still, coming back out of my imagined realm of superhumanity. I really do understand and can see how male dominance has scared women and I don't blame women for being victims. And I don't blame men for being fearful dominators either. <br> <br>I don't blame. I just understand. <br> <br>Blame is useless. <br> <br>I hope my position is a little more clear. <br> <br>Men and women created the world we live in whatever their actions (whether it was ordering or obeying) and the process of blame is pointless. It's the past. What matters is the present. So let's get on with it. <br> <br>Forward!! <br>

[Guest]

Hakim Bey is a moorish pseudonym for peter lamborne wilson, a whitey... he may be called a persian, but this is due to the noble drew ali's system of issuing passports... anyhoo, you people need to chill out on this class shit... anarchism in all rationality should be based on class collaboration rather than war, at least in a levelled post-anarchy anarchism, and fighting amongst ourselves out of jealousy and 'holier-than-thou-ness' is a waste of time...arbitrary judgements of "who is more anarchist" is authoritarian on two levels, a)who are you to decide what anarchism is? b) why are you looking UP to dead old fucks when they are long buried underground... how does what one is born into (primarily their class) affect who they become? sure, i'm class conscious, but in a groucho-marxist vein in the sense that i am conscious of the fact that i have no class... bickering about petty differences is simply a detterent to any sort of progress and what difference does it make if in the end we all wish to live as queens and kings anyway? forget the old men and from what caste they happen to come, forget dogmatic anarchism, and kill whitey... also, we all know the only race traitors are black cops, duh.

[Din]

[color=green]arbitrary judgements of "who is more anarchist" is authoritarian on two levels, a)who are you to decide what anarchism is? b) why are you looking UP to dead old fucks when they are long buried underground...</font color=green> <br> <br>To communicate. Everyone makes assertions. It would be rather useful to have some ground to base those assertions on. And it would not be conducive to communication if everyone starts using the same term to refer to very different ideas. <br> <br>I am more of an anarchist than Adolf Hitler.