Anarchist Discussion Forums Login    
    
    
    Register FAQ  •  What's New  •  Search    
It is currently Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:00 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Chomsky up and sells out
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:32 pm 
Offline
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2002 6:10 am
Posts: 723
Location: Wherever I may roam
Report this post Reply with quote
Chomsky backs "Bush-lite" Kerry

Noam Chomsky, the political theorist and leftwing guru, yesterday gave his reluctant endorsement to the Democratic party's presidential contender, John Kerry, calling him "Bush-lite", but a "fraction" better than his rival.

Professor Chomsky - a linguist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology as well as a renowned chronicler of American foreign policy - said there were "small differences" between Senator Kerry and the Republican president. But, in an interview on the Guardian's politics website, he added that those small differences "can translate into large outcomes".

He describes the choice facing US voters in November as "the choice between two factions of the business party". But the Bush administration was so "cruel and savage", it was important to replace it.

He said: "Kerry is sometimes described as 'Bush-lite', which is not inaccurate. But despite the limited differences both domestically and internationally, there are differences. In a system of immense power, small differences can translate into large outcomes."

He reserved his especial venom for the Bush administration's plans for the health sector: "The people around Bush are deeply committed to dismantling the achievements of popular struggle through the past century no matter what the cost to the general population."

(Reported from http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1174017,00.html?=rss)

_________________
Where I exist. Feel free to drop by; more readers are good things.

"Whoa. So many fallacies. I doubt some of them have names." (Tom)


 Profile  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:23 pm 
Offline
Denizen

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:11 pm
Posts: 295
Location: here, now
Report this post Reply with quote
this would be why some anarchists have a problem with chomsky, for all of you who were wondering.

_________________
utopia means nowhere


 Profile E-mail  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:54 pm 
Report this post Reply with quote
flag_to: Kevin


  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:22 am 
Offline
Zen Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 1593
Location: air?a
Report this post Reply with quote
So which part is selling out:

Saying that Bush is worse than Kerry (and both are awful) or saying that voting is OK for damage control? I think both positions are arguable - calling someone a sellout over either is poisoning the well of discourse.


 Profile  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:32 am 
Offline
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 12:23 am
Posts: 448
Location: Toronto
Report this post Reply with quote
edit


Last edited by PatheticKammy on Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 Profile E-mail  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:33 am 
Offline
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 12:23 am
Posts: 448
Location: Toronto
Report this post Reply with quote
edit


Last edited by PatheticKammy on Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 Profile E-mail  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:16 pm 
Offline
Near Total Consciousness
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 10:13 am
Posts: 2535
Location: US-occupied Mexico
Report this post Reply with quote
Kerry is worse than Bush.

_________________
Homepage

"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." - Tacitus


 Profile E-mail  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:24 pm 
Report this post Reply with quote
jacobhaller wrote:
So which part is selling out:

Saying that Bush is worse than Kerry (and both are awful) or saying that voting is OK for damage control? I think both positions are arguable - calling someone a sellout over either is poisoning the well of discourse.


the term "selling out" is problematic since we all have to make compromises to live life in this society. however, chomsky is perpetrating certain fallacies here:

- that kerry is better than bush - even by a fraction. kerry supports sending *more* troops to iraq. kerry will push the rudder back to the neoliberal agenda (as opposed to the protofascist agenda). neoliberalism is actually worse than protofascism. it kills more. it engenders less opposition.

- that policy is set at the presidential level. it isn't. policy is set by elite economic imperative. everything else (gay marriage, immigration policy, etc) is window dressing.

- that voting represents the will of the voters. it doesn't. the voting system in the U.S. has been corrupt for years. exit polling - once thougt of as the most accurate way to verify elections - stopped working the U.S. seven years ago.

- that america is something akin to a democracy. it isn't. the U.S. is a corporate welfare state which takes direction from global elite economic imperative.

i sitll have much respect for chomsky. but my take on him has always been the same: his research is excellent. his analysis is very good. but his suggestions for action often miss the mark.


  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:58 pm 
Offline
Swivel-Hips
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:23 pm
Posts: 71
Location: Covington, WA
Report this post Reply with quote
but whats wrong with kerry? he says the things i want to hear...

_________________
John Henry Mackay-"I am an Anarchist! Wherefore i will not rule, and also ruled I will not be!"


 Profile  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:13 pm 
Offline
Denizen

Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 10:28 am
Posts: 430
Location: The other London
Report this post Reply with quote
this has come up on flag several times now, and Chomsky has said for perhaps a year or more now that within the limited framework that is US foreign policy the marginal differences between the two parties in this instance might indeed make it worthwhile to vote for the democrats. I think its very objectionable to label this selling out by any measure as he does make a reasoned arguement that is based upon his own humanistic beliefs. If i were in a position were i felt that voting would indeed lesson harm projected by the state then i would vote. I don't know if this is indeed the case, but its certainly a reasonable proposition to consider the facts.

_________________
Have you ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water?


 Profile  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:22 pm 
Offline
Swivel-Hips
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 9:32 pm
Posts: 38
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Report this post Reply with quote
I think Chomsky is just making the point that while their foreign policies are identicaly evil, Bush's domestic policy is fractionaly more evil than Kerry's. Its true too, look at the changes to healthcare and welfare. It's not an argument that would convince me to vote, but I can't see how it means Chomsky is 'selling out' as he never advocated not voting. This article is in complete accordance with everything Chomsky has previously said. Doesnt make him right but it doesnt make him a sell out either.


 Profile  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:41 pm 
Report this post Reply with quote
Anarcho-Commie wrote:
but whats wrong with kerry? he says the things i want to hear...


please tell me you're joiking.


  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:46 pm 
Report this post Reply with quote
tulley wrote:
I think Chomsky is just making the point that while their foreign policies are identicaly evil, Bush's domestic policy is fractionaly more evil than Kerry's. Its true too, look at the changes to healthcare and welfare. It's not an argument that would convince me to vote, but I can't see how it means Chomsky is 'selling out' as he never advocated not voting. This article is in complete accordance with everything Chomsky has previously said. Doesnt make him right but it doesnt make him a sell out either.


it was clinton - a democrat - who dismantled welfare and made the situation for the underclass even worse than it was. he also did nothing for healthcare.

and i would not say that the foreign policies of bush and kerry are identically evil. kerry is obviously going to be a lot worse than bush. but, as usual, he'll have a democrat's smile and all the US-liberals will go back to making money instead of complainging about the government.

death to america. bush in '04!


  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:21 am 
Offline
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 4:49 am
Posts: 190
Location: Aotearoa
Report this post Reply with quote
well, for what it's worth here's the actual interview.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=33&ItemID=5177


 Profile  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:53 pm 
Report this post Reply with quote
tulley wrote:
It's not an argument that would convince me to vote, but I can't see how it means Chomsky is 'selling out' as he never advocated not voting. This article is in complete accordance with everything Chomsky has previously said. Doesnt make him right but it doesnt make him a sell out either.


i agree. i will add that it also doesn't make him an anarchist, and that if he feels so good about voting for rulers and supporting government by making a public endorsement of a candidate, then he might choose a more honest socio-political position to identify with.

i see noam chomsky and the anarchist cookbook in a similar light. both have very little to do with anarchism, and yet both profit by the association made.


  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
phpBB skin developed by: John Olson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group